built a saddle on a flex-tree?

[Mike Craw]

Have any of you built a saddle on a Steele flex-tree? We had a lady come into the shop and ask us to build her a barrel racing saddle. She had been using a tree-less saddle, which we repaired and she sold on ebay for a pretty good price. Once I got a look inside a treeless saddle, it called into question everything I thought I understood about saddle making. Foam padding taped together with cellophane tape, covered with fake sheepskin. Progress, I guess.

So now, after we agreed to build this saddle, she has come in with a Steele saddle tree. The fork and cantle are standard issue wood covered in fiberglass, but the bars are some sort of semi-flexible material covered in a rubberized coating. The ground seat pan that she got with it is roughly 3/16" fiberglass. Naturally, there are no instructions as to how to affix the pan to the tree, or more importantly, how to build a ground seat over top of this whole contraption and have anything stick to anything else...

Anybody with experience, please jump in here!!!

Mike

[steve mason]

Sorry, I can't help you with how to build this saddle.

But I would like to offer some advise that was given to me years ago buy a very talented and experienced saddle maker.

you will be building this saddle with your name stamp on it (which carries with it your reputation), therefore you should only use trees and materials that are up to your high standards, not the customers standards. If you build this rig on this gimmick tree, and it does not work out, all the customer will remember is that you made the saddle and it does not work, she will have forgotten that it was her tree that was the original problem.

Everything I make has my name on it, so I will not build anything using poor quality materials. Just last week a potential customer came to my shop and asked if I would build him a saddle on a tree he owned, it was made by one of so call high end production makers. In comparison to the true custom trees that I use this tree was junk. I explained what works better with the trees I use compared to his tree and told him that I would not build or put my name on his tree. He did not order a saddle and I don't think he will from me. I would rather lose an order than lose the integrity of my saddles and my name.

just my 2 cents

[RyanCope]

QUALITY...."There is hardly anything in the world that some man can not make a little worse , and sell a little cheaper. And the people who consider price only are this man's lawfull prey." A quotation by John Ruskin

This sign hangs in my shop, and is the FIRST thing people see when they enter my shop. It was passed on to me by my teacher when I started out on my own. He drilled into me not to bother with people who are cheap. If you do, your saddlemaking career will suffer because of it. Cheap people make lousy customers ( I'm generalizing ), and are not loyal. I had a woman yesterday who wanted 5 dice cups for Christmas, basket stamped with brands tooled on them. I quoted her $75 a peice, and she about hit the roof. Which was fine because I quoted her too cheap, and I was booked for Christmas in September anyway. Point being, I didn't even blink as she walked out the door. We've all had people walk in that are cheap, and/ or don't know quality. And, frankly I've met many saddlemakers that are not much different. Each individual has to decide what type of saddlemaker they want to become, as well as what type of customer they wish to cater to. Don't waist your time with people that are cheap. People who are uneducated as to what is quality can sometimes become great customers. I understand there is a big difference in perspective depending on whether your building saddles as a hobby, full time, first timer, veteran, different regions and everything in between. So, I can only speak for myself. But it seems to me that THERE IS NEVER A RIGHT WAY TO DO SOMETHING WRONG.

I hope that helps. I know this is a little off subject, but I've been where you are, and I'm where I'm at now, because of the choices I made then. Good, bad, or indifferent. I am certainly no expert, and have much to learn. But I don't deal in crap. Granted ,there are exceptions to every rule, but exceptions will become habits if you are not carefull.

Ryan Cope

[Hidemechanic]

You guys are sooo right.

I've always threatened to hang a sign that says"This is not K-Mart, and the cutomer is not always right!!"

It takes a certain amount of tact to deal with people that 'know' they know more about your job than you do.

As for the flex tree, I can't speak for Steele Trees but I thought they only sold in volume to the prodution out fits. Now Ralide does too but If you know what you want when you call you may get a sample tree from them(free). Just dont' tell them I told you. Anyway, I got one from them that is what they call their flex-tree and it would make a good barrel tree.(it's a variation of the other recipe but has flex to it)

It's been my experience that every gimmic has it's limitations, and myself trying to find other ways to do things to accomadate those with special interests or disciplines, I have found that there are really few changes that you can make from the standard. Some things work on some horses and not on others. Kind of like and un-named flex tree on the market, you either like it or you hate it, it either works for you or it doesn't.

Solid wood trees have been tested for over a century and are still being used with little improvement made to them.

I struggled with raising prices as my quality improves because I for one thought too much about economy, and second having confidence that the pride and quality of workmanship that I put into my product is well worth the higher price that some people get all offended over. That, in and of itself gives me the right to be offended that someone would presume that I (or you) should take a pay cut or cut the quality of our product to make them feel better about buying from me(us).

What's the best way to handle those people?

You might say," don't dothat sort of work maybe you could talk to what's his name down the road, but I could show you what I do if you are interested.

Maybe that's another good subject to persue in another thread.

Best wishes, G. Hackett

[greg gomersall]

Nos Hoc Capio Sus Greg

[AndyKnight]

Greg , Nos Hoc Capio Sus

what the heck is that in english....??

I mucked with a couple of rubber barred trees..a number of years ago. A royal pain.in the a...!. also agree not a good Idea to put ones name on some of these.

[steve mason]

"Nos Hoc Capio Sus Greg"

Me don't understand???

Edited November 22, 2007 by steve mason

[Hidemechanic]

Greg, what do you no compredo? GH

[greg gomersall]

I fully understand. The translation from latin to english is " we don't rent pigs". In other words build on it if you like but a man that would rent a pig won't stop at other things. Greg

[steve mason]

I was pretty sure that qoute came from Augustus McCrae.

[Hidemechanic]

Okay, I'll just sit in the corner here with Lippy wondering why I never get the girl,<;,

[Elton Joorisity]

I kinda get the feeling that sitting in the corner watching and listening to Steve and Gummy might be way more entertaining than some girls are!!!! Greg's got a pretty good story about a chap order from an actor!(at least that's what I was told) We'll just say that the actor is Asian!!

[Blake]

Hello Mike

I don't guess that you have gotten an answer to your question yet but its pretty obvious what most of us think about the tree.

Steele has a few different versions of the flex tree. It was developed for the production line where staples and lots of hands are the norm. Otherwise it is a pain in the ass for the custom maker and very undesirable especially when you get it already assembled.

For Production, You can change the fork and the cantle along with the angles and distance that the bars will sit in relation to each other and the type or breed of horse you would like to fit. This is the theory so keep in mind that actual practice can vary wildly.

The version that you have has The seperate glass strainer and depending how you install it it can change the rock/rocker as well as distort the symmetry of the tree. I have pulled these type trees from problem saddles and actually found the bottom of the tree to be convex because the tree was held down with extreme pressure when the strainer was stapled in thus ignoring/eliminating the rock or purpose of the rock altogether. The strainers also tend to come loose after a period of time because of the flex and even sooner when the fit isn't the best.

Several Saddle Mfg. companies make there own versions of the flex tree and advertise it as an answer for proper fit but in reality it seems to be causing more problems at the horses expense. This is pretty obvious that it is a huge quality control issue. Whatever the outcome (which is usually bad) your name is on it so you will be the one to take blame or credit regardless of who supplied the tree.

Steele tree co. is the largest maker of production trees in the world and they cater to the PRODUCTION companies not the custom saddle maker.

Just another fact is that synthetic trees and the components are usually supplied by outside contracting to the Tree or saddle mfg. companies thus eliminating some of the tree making processes that create hazardous work enviroments because of sawdust and related chemical fumes. This appeases OSHA and keeps workman comp down a little.

This all points to the cost factor and not the overall quality of the finished product. Do yourself and your clients a favor and find you a tree maker that will work with you and will also be willing to help you in selecting your trees for your clients use.

This is just my $.02 worth and you can keep the change.

Kind Regards

Blake

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

We have been hesitant to post here because it may be seen to be self-serving, which is honestly not the case. But since no one else has yet come up with the same things we would say, here goes… Disclaimer: We know in general about flexible bar trees, but have not spent time studying any brand specifically, and these are more general comments and questions relating to all flexible trees.

For the horse, the benefit of being ridden in a saddle rather than bareback is that the rider’s weight is spread over a larger surface area, causing less PSI in any one spot. With a rigid tree, the weight is spread pretty evenly over the surface area that is in contact with the horse (if it fits well). We see some possible problems with a tree that is flexible.

1.) It flexes, therefore it sags under the rider’s weight, putting more pressure in the center of the bars than on the ends of them. Yes, it distributes the pressure better than riding bareback would, but not as well as a rigid tree. And while most people don’t ride bareback for any great length of time, they will ride in a saddle like this for hours at a time, which may lead to problems.

2.) Any type of saddle has an interface between a movable horse’s back and a rigid structure somewhere. With a rigid tree, that is the whole surface area of the bars. For something like this, it is where the fork and cantle attach. These have the potential of becoming pressure points.

3.) Is the shape of the bar one you would accept and use if the tree were rigid? If not, the areas of concern to you will not be problem free just because the tree flexes. Flexible or not, it still needs to fit as is.

4.) Because we live further north than the vast majority of the world’s population, we know by experience how stiff everything (including ourselves) becomes when it gets cold. At what temperature are these bars still flexible, and at what point do they stiffen up? Combined with #3 above, this may also cause problems.

Just our 1.93 cents worth (2 cents American).