Singer 51 W 25 Stitch length?

[Irishleather]

I just picked up a Singer 51 W 25, I think. The badge is gone. What I am asking about:  I see a lever to the right that I thought would increase the stitch length, and the lever does move a rod along a slide changing, maybe, the feeddog shaft? Not sure what I am looking at yet. Is that what that lever is suppose to do? Also I broke the bobbin case tension spring, thought I could coax it to put pressure on the thread, since completelty tight did not. But, ya, that didn't work. Works on newer stuff. So I hope one is coming from an eBay seller, although it didn't identify that machine.  I saw on on here, but nothing that might speak to a similar machine so I can figure out the stitch regulator, if that's what it is.  Advice? Beautiful old table! I put pictures in, then thought to choose a better one, now it won't let me load any. lol  

There they are.  

[Irishleather]

OK, I got it moving everything including the feed dogs. I'm using a needle from my  Singer 17-23. I think it might be a good match, it is with the hook, but it is pretty sunk before the teeth go below the plate. So that sounds like a feed adjustment. So far the stiches are aroun 9 to an inch. I am afraid that is too small for leather. Which could put me in search of a post bed with longer stitiches. 

[Northmount]

44 minutes ago, Irishleather said:

Beautiful old table! I put pictures in, then thought to choose a better one, now it won't let me load any. lol  

If your files are too large to post here due to file size restrictions, you need to resize your files to fit.  Follow this link for some helps and suggestions.  https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/15122-how-to-post-pictures-on-lw/?do=findComment&comment=551171

There are lots of Apps, software, and online tools available on the web, or even built into your device to enable you to reduce your file sizes.  800 pixels in the longest dimension is quite adequate.  Smart phone screens and many monitors don't display high res files in high resolution.  People that live on the fringes of the internet appreciate smaller file sizes and high res photos may take from 10 minutes to hours to download.

[Constabulary]

You have an early 51w based on a Wheeler & Wilson machine. The later 51w models look a bit different. I have a similar one that I restored some years ago.

https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/86292-singer-51w-sv-2-post-bed-machine-restoration/

 

 

If the lever does not move then loosen the set screw on the front side

 

 

I have attached manual that will work for your machine.

Hope this helps

 

Singer 51w100 and 52w100 - instructions for using and adjusting.pdf

Edited October 18 by Constabulary

[Irishleather]

Thank you. Everything moves and works now. A little "Goo Gone" and parts started to move better. The feed-dogs use up the slot in the plate so thats good, still small stitches, but that is the design.  Shoping for needles, looks like they are available and unfortunately small which tells me this machine is light to medium fabric. I was hoping to do canvas and light leather bags.  I broke the bobbin case thread tension piece, I think I located one that might work. I have containers of parts and nothing with that spring. lol  I also see there is no take-up spring. It shows one on the 72W (Which Bob Kovar recomended looking at [thanks Bob]).  I have a container of springs, too, we'll see. I'm wondering why I can't just modernize the last tension.  

Thank for you help! 

The manual was perfect! Thank you!!

[Irishleather]

 

Checked out your restoration on the 51W100 wow! And you got longer stitches. Amazing work!!!

Edited October 18 by Irishleather

[Constabulary]

2 hours ago, Irishleather said:

unfortunately small which tells me this machine is light to medium fabric. I was hoping to do canvas and light leather bags. 

Don´t give up alreday - you still have options, lets try to work on this.

 

I`m using this feed dog and needle plate set on my machine, I guess it will work on yours too.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143603162021

Regarding stitch leght. I have removed the silver limiter on my machine that is held by the slotted screw in below picture and got a longer stitch length. Do have this limiter too?

Please post pictures of where parts are missing. I probably have some bits. I can cross check that on my machine then. I have the OEM bobbin case with tension spring but I do not need it cause I installed a different hook from a Dürkopp machine.

But if Bob Kovar has parts then even better.

BTW - the machine is Wheeler & Wilson based so I would check for W&W parts too. F.i. I would guess the check spring unit form this face plate could fit and seems it has the upper thread guide too:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234949782474

or check Ebay for other W&W parts

I think I have spare check springs... I can check that tomorrow.

 

Edited October 18 by Constabulary

[Irishleather]

I am going to order the feed dog set.  The stop on the lever was the first to be loosened. So the feed dogs on it make their full sweep. But I like your idea for getting a longer stitch.  The bobbin cap is relativily new, I think. But no way was it going to lay pressure on the thread. So I took it off and thought i could gently bend it as I have before. But this one was brittle and snapped right away. Oops.   Before I order needles; Does any of the changes you made change the needle type?  And what needle do you use? I'm was hoping to use an 18, but I've only seen 14s in needle I thought was the right one.  130x3 or 128x?  flat side or round shank? Or just use whatever works with fit and timing? 

The W&W face plate doesn't show it has the take-up spring, I have a bunch of springs to play with and thanks to you a picture, at least, to cofirn the spring and I can see the type, if it is the same as mine. Mine, I have taken apart. I think every thing but the spring is there.  

I'll order the dogs and play with springs. I'm wondering if I can upgrade the tension, so I'll grab that box and dig around in that, too.  Thanks!

[Constabulary]

The reason why I changed the needle bar is that I now can use more the common needles with a 2mm round shaft. They are easier to find and most of my machines were already set up for 135x17 / 135x16 needles. So I do not have to stock lots of different needle systems and different sizes. I just stock 135x17 and 135x16 and I can use them in what ever machine I want. You of course have to adjust the needle hook timing then (basically the needle bar height) but that's the same procedure as on all other plain straight stitch sewing machines. If you have done this before it won´t be a big problem.

The check springs + tensions springs are quite a bit smaller than f.i. the ones for the 111w or similar. I can post pictures tomorrow.

Edited October 18 by Constabulary

[Irishleather]

I'm comfortable with changing needle bars and readjusting the timimg. Why not just raise the bar for a longer needle? I have a lot of different needles for somewhat old sergers and just old unwanted stock from a boot maker in Eastern WA.  I will choose the needle (sort of) for the reasons you did and maybe only need to raise the bar. 

Even more challenging.... I wonder if I found a pressure-foot bar that fit... if I could then upgrade to a roller foot? 

Right now the needle for my 23-17 appear to be the right size, too  . Which would get me into a size 18 needle. I tried a 22, the timing was good, but the needle slid down the upper left-hand side of the hole. However, with a flat-side instead of round, it would put me more towards the center ( I think).  Here is a spring I might try....             

                                                                                                 

[Irishleather]

Ya, that spring didn'y work. lol  I look for a picture on a parts list. Hopefully.
 

[Irishleather]

I don't think it's all there, judging from the list of parts and pictures.  There is a round piece between the plates that looks like it is for part of the spring to move on.  I need to just try some things, even something semi-modern. 

[Constabulary]

8 hours ago, Irishleather said:

I'm comfortable with changing needle bars and readjusting the timimg. Why not just raise the bar for a longer needle? I have a lot of different needles for somewhat old sergers and just old unwanted stock from a boot maker in Eastern WA.  I will choose the needle (sort of) for the reasons you did and maybe only need to raise the bar. 

The 128 needles for this machine have a smaller shaft diameter (1.75mm IIRC) but maybe someone already changed the needle bar before and you can use 2mm shaft needles. Just try it.

The needles from your Singer 17 may work. The Singer 17 is using 16x231 (and similar) needles which have a 1.62mm shaft thats why they may fit. But due to the different shaft diameter the needle is a little bit further away from the hook tip so that could cause problems with catching the thread loop.

My intention was the use of 2mm shaft needles. Thats why I changed the needle bar. If you buy a new needle bar then keep in mind that I have drilled the casting and installed a longer top bushing to guide the shorter needle bar I have used. I have not found a longer needle bar. Not saying there is none but I have found none.

Regarding tension disks - you can use tension discs from a Singer 107w or 111w they have the cutout for the stop pin too. You need two of them part number is #244048. The 3rd disc you need is the tension release washer with the small tab across the center hole. Part number is 204271 (lower left corner in your picture).

Edited October 19 by Constabulary

[Constabulary]

Saturday morning on my side of the pond... raining again... so I did some more research

I found a complete tension unit that most likely fit your machine cause it is for the Singer 12w which is W&W based as well:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304633314716

And therefore this check spring should work for you as well:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304633311966

I also figured the parts number for the bobbin case tension spring:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/293335114642

How have I figured this - well there is a 51w100 post bed machine and it is the old style 51w and it has a parts list... Bobbin case is the same as on my 51w so I would guess the other parts are the same as well so I googled the numbers and found the parts on Ebay.

All to my best knowledge - cross check if you want.

 

 

SINGER 51W100.pdf

Edited October 19 by Constabulary

[Irishleather]

Thank you so much!! I appreciate your time on this. Going to look now that the rain have driven me inside.  

[Constabulary]

You are welcome. Its interesting fro me too to figure where to get bits for upcoming projects. Always good to have cross references especially for these very old machines. Fortunately Singer continued using certain parts so the chances are good to find even some of the "odd parts".

Keep us posted with the restoration progress of your machine.

[Irishleather]

I was looking at Wheeler & Wilson nose parts and I think those lower tensions with the take-up spring might work. The passive tension up high doesn't worry me. It's the lower tension because it is missing parts.  I have a bin full of old new stock springs and recovered tension parts. I'm grateful you found the case/cap tension spring. I will order those. Then Frankenstein the lower tension until a Wilson Wheeler or other complete tension with take-up spring (with or without the actual spring) shows up. There were a few on eBay, but already sold. I have a friend that collects then, so I'll be able to really see if that is an option. I'm excited it will take longer stitches when I get the parts.