Saddle Fit: An Enduring Western Myth

[Saddlebag]

Basically it was the slave trade for picking cotton and the invention of the big spinning mills in the north east that bo't cotton into favor. Hemp was pushed into the background because it lasted so long and that's not what creates faster profits. That's what I was told.

[HorsehairBraider]

My point was not, "cinches are made of cotton" and in fact I never said that. I was addressing the fact that cotton becomes stronger, not weaker, when wet. Sorry if this was not clear.

As for whether cotton was used for sails, according to the Wikipedia article on sail cloth it was, and I certainly was not trying to say it was the only thing... It was simply lighter than linen and more likely to be used in the US. As for the rest, I bow to the experts. I simply wanted to clear up the wrong idea that cotton becomes weak when wet; this is not true.

[Dusty Johnson]

For those readers who have found a problem with my original posting about Saddle Fitting back at the start of this thread I suggst you read the current (November 2009) Western Horseman magazine, page 46. Thanks for checking.

Dusty Johnson, Pleasant Valley Saddle Shop & School

[Newfman]

I gotta' admit,

When i read that article last October (in the November Issue), I thought, "Great , everything I thought i was learning just got bounced on its ear!"

From the article:

Should each saddle be made for each individual horse's measurements?

Harwood: Absolutely not. A saddle will outlast many a head of horses. If the average saddle won't fit, get rid of the horse, not the saddle.

Stormes: No...

Maloy: Only if you have a freak horse.

Willemsma: If you make a saddle to fit one horse, what do you do if the horse dies?

Schwarz: That's just foolishness. One saddle will last for many horses lifetimes.

Pedirni: Absolutely not.

Bean: That's very rarely necessary.

Mecum: No. Most horses' backs change from 4 to 12 years of age and from season to season.

Considering the circulation of Western Horseman Magazine and how many people it reaches, the names of the saddle makers they interviewed and the things that were said, how does one then say that it is necessary for a saddle to be built specifically to the measurements of a specific horse?

So, I see Dusty's point. I thought of saying something about the article back then but the thread had previously gone a little sideways. This way, I can hold Dusty up in front of me as a shield since he is older and should know better!

Seriously though, Many people, myself included, recognize the value in a hand made saddle by a true craftsman. But let's face it, these saddles cost more than most of our horses do. I believe that most people, that are concerned about a high quality saddle being for the sake of the horse; would step up to a hand made saddle for three, four or five grand, assuming they are in that financial position. On the other hand, I doubt to many of them think of it as a saddle specifically for that horse and will dispose of the saddle when the horse is no longer being ridden....for what ever reason, death, sale, injury, retirement, what have you. Now, yes, I had an uncle that seemed to buy a new Pick-up or Suburban everytime the ashtray got full, but these people are a small part of the equation. . .and weird.

So, what is middle ground?

And thank you Blake:

I think that I would add how the horse is trimmed or shod.

Indeed. I'm a barefoot trimmer, and I could go on for pages about horse feet. I know of a Very pricey Warmblood that has developed "Bucking" issues. He is being "trained" as if this acute onset of issues is behavioral. OMG! If you could see this poor creatures feet! He is all but foundered. When I politely as possible mentioned it...well, I am not welcome there anymore... So, they continue with the saddle fittings and trainers and what not....anyways, getting off topic.

_____________________________________________

I do think about some of the points made by all of you as well as the article. I look at our 3 1/2 year old and know that he has a couple more years to grow. Plus, just starting out under saddle, he is going to develop musculature and and other conformational changes. Theoretically, i am looking at about $4000. per year in saddles, until age 7 through 12 and then he will probably change again.

So, I watch the clinicians go from horse to horse with the same saddle and it isn't too often that they seem to have to ride in the owners saddle because theirs is not going to fit well enough. And, what is well enough?

If I had a plaster mold of my horses back made, sent it to Denise and Rod and had them make the perfect tree to match that mold, then sent the tree to my choice of fine makers, it very well could be two years before that saddle touches my horse. The horse will be a totally different animal by that time.

I do believe that there has to be a pretty broad range of fit. And I doubt that there will ever be a "Perfect Fit". Because, that would only be a moment in time, and with the horse and rider in a momentary position. Saddles are pretty static, horses and people are hugely dynamic.

Ok, pushing the "Add Reply" button with a little trepidation.

P.s. I am NOT a saddle fitter, and honestly would likely need help with fitting. But, on the other hand, this thread has a lot to do with why it is so hard for people to really learn "saddle fitting". No?

Edited February 10, 2010 by Newfman

[bruce johnson]

MY thoughts are that all these guys are "fitting" on some level, whether they choose to call it that or not. Everyone does. The difference is that very few of us are doing what somebody has termed "microfitting". Most of us aren't doing back molds to fit every nook and cranny. We order a tree with a gullet/handhole width and bar pattern that we think will fit what our customer rides. We do that at minimum. That has to be considered part of "fitting". I don't know of many customers who comes in to many of us and says, "I want a 6-1/4" gullet, 90 degree, northest bar tree" that doesn't have some background. Some or most of the time, they don't know what to ask for. Either we have to guess based on their pictures, descriptions, and our own experiences that tree maker X's 6-1/2 90 degree fits most of them like that I see and from tree maker Y I need a 4" handhole 93 degree tree. Not everybody's bottom patterns are the same either, and the bulgy horses might not go as well in a crowned up bottom that the narrower back would. These guys aren't just calling up a tree maker and saying "send me a 15-1/2" low Assoc". They are calling someone they have experience with, know what has worked for most of the past ones, and at least telling them some basic width measurement and ordering that. It might well be the same each time, or it could be "He rodes big blocky horses, ropes calves, and uses 1" pads with a Navajo and orders a 6-3/4" and the next guy rides mostly colts and narrower horses and he orders a 6-1/4 for him". THAT is fitting on a basic level to me. If we don't do that, we are about the same level of competance as the kid at the feedstore.

Horses are pretty tolerant, and there is a range of what works and what doesn't. If we are within that, we are doing alright. How big that range is what the question is.

A whole block got left out, so here it is. If we don't want to guess at what they ride, pictures, or whatever. we do have the card fitting system from Dennis Lane. That can give us an idea of a few dimensions and give us a better idea of the general profile of the back.

[Newfman]

Interesting points Bruce. The "range" makes good sense, as well as the question as to what the limits of the range actually are. So, maybe you have a saddle built for your primary (or only) horse, and hope that it fits other horses in the future. At least the first horse will be golden, and people being creatures of habit, may tend towards a certaint 'type' of horse, therefore their saddle tends to be serviceable over a variety of horses for that persons 'taste' in horses.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

If I had a plaster mold of my horses back made, sent it to Denise and Rod and had them make the perfect tree to match that mold,

Most of us aren't doing back molds to fit every nook and cranny.

Thought we better pop in here to clarify a possible misconception. There is a common idea out there that when a tree maker gets a mold or numbers from the DL system or back drawings or whatever else that they make an exact copy/negative/inverse for the bottom of the bar to fit that horse. This is NOT what we do. We simply use the information given to know what general type or shape of horse it represents and then use whatever combination of hand hole width, bar angle, rock, crown, etc. that is needed to fit that type of horse. We don't build trees to fit one specific horse - only the type of horse that represents - so the saddle can be used on other horses of that type. And with adequate surface area on the bars, it will also fit a range of horses on either side of the "ideal" type. Even though it will sit higher or lower on some horses, it will not dig in anywhere (no high pressure points) and will still have adequate surface area contacting the horse (even with some of the bar not contacting) to distribute the weight decently. This is how a well designed tree can be used on a lot of horses.

If an owner has an individual horse, then using these systems is a good way to get us the information on that horse's shape, since "big and wide" can mean different things to different people, or the owners simply don't know enough to describe their horses properly. A case in point: We were at a place that raised and trained Tennessee Walking Horses and we were using Dennis Lane's system to check their back types for our own benefit. As we checked out a mare the handler commented that they had no problems fitting a saddle to this horse as she was pretty wide so the "normal" saddles fit her well. Looking at the horse (and confirming our ideas with the DL cards) we would agree that our most common combination would work on this mare. Then they brought in a gelding telling us how hard a time they had fitting this horse because he was so narrow. Looking at his chest from the front, he was much narrower than the mare. But his back carded the same! The reason they were having problems fitting this horse was they were looking for a narrow saddle for a horse that wasn't narrow in the back! And these were people who had been in the equine business for a lot of years. So if they couldn't evaluate a back well, how can we expect an individual horse owner to be able to tell us what we need to know? Most saddle makers have spent a fair amount of time throwing trees on horses and evaluating what they see and then how well they work in the finished saddle. So they get to know how "such and such" tree specs from a specific maker will work on this type of horse. If they know their customers and the common type of horses ridden at that ranch or barn or even in the area in which they live, then they can make a good judgment call on what to order.

I'm attaching pictures of three horses below here to maybe illustrate. The bay with the white shoulder is a pretty middle of the road horse. He fits right into the middle of the bell curve of horse shape variations and there are a lot of horses out there like him. He would do OK in more than one of our common combinations of width and angle and our "normal" rock, though we chose the combination we thought was ideal. And the tree built for this order will fit a lot of other horses out there. Trees built for the dark brown and the gray, however, won't fit much of a range of shapes since they are already at the far edges of the bell curve of variations. They will, however, fit the relatively low percentage of other horses of this type/shape. And since both owners are committed to their specific breed and discipline, the chance of them having another horse of this shape is fairly good. Should you build for the ends of the bell curves? That is a question to be answered by individual makers. But even building for an "end of the bell curve shape" is a different question than building for an individual horse and his idiosyncrasies. Hopefully this helps demonstrate the difference.

(And yes, other factors than the tree or even the saddle affect the horse's back and need to be considered. But the tree and saddle DO affect the horse's back!)

Edited February 11, 2010 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[Newfman]

Thanks Denise (?) (50/50 chance right?!?!?)

You too Rod,

So, , there you have it. I finally get it. I have read similar points made by the saddle makers, but there was always a post to the contrary. Someone, like myself (or the guy that recently posted and after recommendations from some truly great saddle makers, still elected to go with a saddle of questionable quality), could easily believe that some saddle makers just build a saddle to fit a group of horses and some micro-fit. That for a truly custom, high end saddle, you will pay many thousands and it will fit like a glove. That, obviously, is just not reality, nor is it practical, as I now understand. One maker may take more time or even get more personally involved in the fitting process, as in, actually flying out to do the fitting themselves before building the saddle, but ultimately, the tree will be made to fit in the middle of a range. I would have thought that the difference would be that the tree is made to exact specifications.

So, what you are paying for, is expertise, experience, craftsmanship, and brand. Quality aside, I know that if I bought a Circle Y, or Big Horn, or Tex Tan, or even a Clinton Anderson Aussie, there is a good chance that it will fit comfortably. If the saddle horn should 'pop off' at a team roping event , I would be humiliated, and angry as hell at. . .whom? Circle Y? Tex Tan? These are just buildings and places of employment. Nobody but their name to it! Too many people, their name is still important. Nobody wants to have their name become Mudd, so I have a good feeling that the horn won't pop off of one of Bruce's saddles, or Keith's or Brents saddles, or Rod and Denise's tree. The saddle will fit and likely carry him through a variety of physical changes.

I believe there are a lot of "Master" saddle makers here. The level of talent on this forum is uncanny. I would now recommend to someone looking for a good saddle, to find a reputable saddle maker and have one Hand Made. It will fit your horse, and somebody is staking their personal reputation on its quality and craftsmanship. You don't have to have a Dale Harwood or a Keith Siedel to have a truly great saddle, though, they may ultimately have more "collectors" value in the end, but you can have a very well made saddle that fits remarkably well for the $3k range. I also understand how it would be a lot better for somone to find a well made used saddle for $1500 then it would be to buy a brand new saddle for $1500.

Hmm, sorry if I let the topic slip away a bit. This thread should not get lost. It should be referred to a lot of 'newbies' that come in saying, "I need help finding a saddle." It really clears things up.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

the tree will be made to fit in the middle of a range

Bingo! The ideal fit is when the horse is at the middle of the range of horse shapes which that tree would work on, and that is what we aim at when someone wants a tree for a specific horse. When they are looking to ride a number of horses, we try to figure out the general range that will be needed and hit the middle of that, though that is more commonly done verbally than with back drawings etc.

A couple points I would like to highlight in terms of "fitting a range" though. First, you need a well designed tree, which means that it doesn't dig in anywhere along its entire length. (There is not a lot of talk about fitting anything other than withers in the lay person world, and the rest of the tree is just as important.) If it doesn't have relief on the edges and tips, etc. it won't work even if the middle of the range the width and angle, etc. are correct. Second, you need adequate surface area. Narrow short bars may work OK if they are really dead on for fit. They don't have much range though because they need all that surface area to distribute the weight sufficiently and if they lose partial contact due to varying horse shape they may produce high pressure areas just due to lack of adequate surface area on the horse. (I would suggest there is a difference in these two factors between true hand made trees and production models. But then, every tree maker thinks a bit differently too!)

Edited February 11, 2010 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[Newfman]

Cool.

Thank you.