Fitting different types of backs

[AZThunderPony]

I just wanted to thank everyone for all the wonderful information you are sharing here. For the first time ina long time in a forum situation the differences of opinion are educating and not damaging.

This is a sampling of backs of different ages, and sizes of the same breed. Some pics are of 20 some year old horses from the 60's some are recent shots of 2 year olds, some are at varied ages in between. Heights range from 13 to 15 hands. All are stallions. in varying condition or non condition.

All have these common problems with fitting saddles. They have muscling that reaches from the neck along the sides of mild withers ending deep into the back, round backs, narrow shoulders that meet up with well sprung ribs, round barrels, short backs that rise up slighty into the loin. If they have good shoulders they should be well layed back which places the saddle too far back for anything but a full or 15/16th rigging and a three point tie off.

I have yet to find a saddle that had all the parts come together in such a way as to fit this breed as a breed... Trees? Are you kidding?

This is a project: you guys want to share some thoughts?

Thanks for your info and time!

Susan Catt

Bear Paw Ranch

Arizona

[Don101]

Hi AZT Welcome

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Welcome, AZThunderPony. Glad to have you aboard.

You have given a good verbal description of your breed, and it does sound like there are a number of things different enough that a tree made for a "typical" quarter horse would not fit easily on these horses. Something that would help a lot in getting a better idea of the shape of these horses' backs would be some pictures taken from different angles. One taken from behind and slightly above the horse so we can see the back side to side, and two others angled from about 45 degrees to the front and to the back of the horse would give us more of a 3D view. Is this a possibility?

Are you looking for an English or Western saddle? You mention that all these pictures come from stallions. Do you have the same problems in fit with mares and geldings? Is it worse with the stallions? What specific problems have you had with previous saddles?

Lots of questions to start out with, but that is generally our approach to figuring out a fit problem. The more information we have, especially pictures, the better we can figure out what would need to be done to fit your horses the best. Should be an interesting discussion.

[AZThunderPony]

Hi Rod and Denise. I'm not sure if you have spoke with Terry Moore, but he is my saddle maker. Or he is making the saddle I feel will fit a Spanish Mustang. Since Terry will be making the saddle I'm guessing from our conversations that you guys will be making the tree. I was hoping folks on here would comment on some of the problems varied breeds face, since not everyone has the typical QH, Draft, TB or Arab type horses. lol

The saddle I'm having made is a customized version of an 1880's/On the Border, saddle. We are still discussing trees, but the one I'm leaning toward is the Meana or Slick Fork. Since Terry owns the same breed as I do, and has the "Mustang" tree (I believe you made for him), and has successfully fit his own horses who share the listed attributes in the earlier post, I feel he is best suited to be my saddle maker.

However, there are many Spanish Mustang owners looking for good saddles that fit their horses. Many production saddles have been tried, so far very few actually fit this breed correctly. There is a large enough venue out there within this breed to warrant some interest to Saddle Makers and Tree makers. So I've been on a reseach journey to bring this delima to the attention of those who can make a difference. In doing so I hope saddles will begin to emerge that are built in such away that Spanish "Type" horses particularly Spanish Mustangs (Barbs, Colonial Spanish or what have you) will be able to perform comfortably.

The biggest problems I have faced fitting Spanish Mustangs are:

1) rigging (3/4) to 5/8) too far back on rib cage, causes saddle to slip up onto shoulders and cinch to become loose.

2) Back of tree digs into the loins

3) pinching at withers

4) tree cutting into the muscling along ribheads

4) gaps between front of tree and back of tree along horses backs (one or both sides)

5) improper contact at wither/shoulder pocket (to tight, or to sloppy)

6) many types of riggins such as flat plate dig into horses ribs)

As for sex and size, no it doesnt seem to matter too much regarding saddle fit accept it seems the mares appear to be a bit rounder, which compounds the above fit issues. Mares also do not carry themselve as elevated as stallions which I suppose could throw off the balance as well.

Good luck folks... I am really interested to see what kinds of approaches will be put on the table to address these "issues" which by-the-way show up collectively on almost every horse as well as on some horses indepently.

Thanks for the post.

Susan Catt

Bear Paw Ranch

Arizana

Edited May 20, 2007 by AZThunderPony

[bruce johnson]

Susan,

Welcome to the group. Your questions are almost exactly what I had in mind when I started this whole saddle tree line of questions. I think most of us feel like we can decently fit most of our customer's horses with what we are using now. But what do we do when the customer comes in who doesn't ride the average 1100# QH? The person who has the more Spanish influenced horse, the gaited horse, or whatever, and wants to ride in a western saddle. The off the rack saddles (and trees) are probably not going to work, and that is where we can help fit the bill. Again to bring up shoes. The average person buys off the rack shoes, the average rider buys an off the rack saddle. The person who has foot problems needs either orthotics or custom made shoes. The specialty shoe market is a very miniscule part of the total number of shoes sold, just as custom saddles are. It is still a viable market.

Your questions and comments on rigging type and position are interesting. That is one of the areas I wanted to go to, with carrying on this whole fit and saddlemaking thread. Like bars, I think that needs to sit on its own. Each of these could sit on their own to make this usable without a lot of searching.

My thoughts are to have separate threads for the top of the tree - cantles (style and angle), forks/swells/pommels (styles to a point - there are about a million, materials and attachment), tree covering (rawhide, glass, synthetics dips). Other than Rod and Denise's articles in LCSJ, there has not been much info coming from a tree maker.

Likewise separate threads for the rest of this area. Rigging type and position is probably secondary only to trees as fit issue. The best tree rigged wrong for a particular type of horse won't work. Skirts play a part. Should they be laced all the way back, or just to the bar points? Skirt linings - real woolskin, synthetic, gel inserts - all probably have their merits.

This is going to be the "never-ending" story....

Bruce Johnson

[AZThunderPony]

Thanks Bruce for your post.

Im adding some more pics of this breed. Just more food for thought.

Mares various sizes and ages. Broodmares, riding mares, fillies in varied states of condition (mostly fat).

Stallion in herd condition. even with minimum condition, this horse shows a strong Latissimas Dorsi muscle (circle), plus the position of the erectors mm (Muscle) to the rib heads (short horizontal line on side of horse), also horizontal line above horse shows wither to croup alignement. Angled line along neck shows not only the angle of how the neck sits on but also how the neck with weight will appear to continue well into the back in true Spanish form.

This is the back of my mare. Just for comparison sake. She is soft, in foal, and over weight.

Thanks again everyone for your contributions.

Susan Catt

Bear Paw Ranch

Arizona

Edited May 20, 2007 by AZThunderPony

[David Genadek]

Susan,

I see more than one back type here although pretty hard to say a whole lot from one single view. My understanding is that the Mustangs were influenced by the Barb (more of an angle to the ribs) from the south and a Canadian horse (well sprung rib cage) that looked like a Morgan from the north. Although I see variations in rib cage shape in every breed so I would hesitate to say that is a why the variation in the Mustangs. My point is you can never look at saddle fit in terms of breed. You can look at it in terms of ribcage shape and that will carry you across many breeds. Everyone seems to want to create the magic tree that will fit a breed and I'm sure Wrangler would like to make a pair of jeans that fits anyone that likes to sing but the reality is we have to fit the rib cage type of individual horses and not their breed. Although it is true that horses of a breed will often have similar characteristics, the notion of having a Mustang tree or a gaited horse tree is just marketing and has nothing to do with the reality of the horse. I have attached a tracing of a back I got in on Friday to emphasize how you just can’t say that you have a tree to fit a particular breed. Can anyone guess what breed of horse this is?

A word about withers: Withers can be long or short they can be straight or angled. Most are taught to look at the bump on the top of the horse and see that as the Wither but that is only the tip of the proverbial iceberg. Each vertebra has a bone sticking up out of the top called a spinal process on top of the spinal process there is a cap of cartilage where the dorsal ligament attaches. So the spinal processes are levers that work in conjunction with the cable system that is the dorsal ligament. The withers are longer levers. To get a handle on how long they really are you have to find the base of neck and look from there to the top of the whither and that will tell you how big the wither actually is. The more angle the wither has the further back into the body it will tie in. Horses with well-sprung rib cages and fuller muscle type are often thought to have less whither when often that is not the case you just can’t see it.

David Genadek

[AZThunderPony]

My point is you can never look at saddle fit in terms of breed.

David Genadek

Not guessing, as you pointed out could be any breed. But the SPANISH mustang has certain physical attributes that do span thebreed as anorm just like everyother breed. These attributes are what we need to fit in general.

Horses with well-sprung rib cages and fuller muscle type are often thought to have less whither when often that is not the case you just can’t see it.

Since you are compadres with Liz, I'd have to say that you had ample time to view Whoddie (Janes) gelding?

David Genadek

Excatly my point when folks tryto tellme that Sm horses are "Mutton" withered. They have plenty of withers, but they also are very deeply buyilt horses wich causes the lower appearance on top.

David Genadek

Thanks Daid foryour post. I appreciate your observations.

Susan Catt

Bear Paw Ranch

Arizona

[David Genadek]

Susan,

Ahh so Whoddie is famous! I’ll tell him that next time he is here.

Let me comment on one of your other posts.

1) rigging (3/4) to 5/8) too far back on rib cage, causes saddle to slip up onto shoulders and cinch to become loose.

This is not a rigging position issue it is a tree fitting issue. Since rigging position is dependant on where the tree maker designed the tree to fit it is really hard to pin point issues in regard to position. If the tree fits properly you should have not have a problem positioning the cinch so that it is behind the elbow when the front leg is back as far as it can go. If you are using a double rigged saddle I would ask if you are using your rear cinch as tight as the front if not then you could have been causing the issue. Jane has documented her work with Liz quite well and probable has some photos of Whoodie with a saddle in the 5/8 position. The saddle she rides is also in the 5/8 positions so you might want to ask her what her experience has been in regard to rigging position.

2) Back of tree digs into the loins

This is common in all breeds and is usually because of two things one the tree does not have enough rock or the saddle is being placed to far back. I put an additional flair on the rear tip of the bar to prevent this from happening and it also lets me direct the rear of the skirt away from the hindquarters when I shape the skirts.

3) pinching at withers

The tree is just not the right shape or it has a downhill orientation and if so you are back to point 1 are you using the rigging properly.

4) tree cutting into the muscling along ribheads

This is a sign that the twist of the bar is incorrect for the shape of the back. You will have more of this issue on the Mustangs that have been more heavily influenced by the Barb. On the horse with a well-sprung rib cage you will get pressure on the bottom edge of the bar.

5) gaps between front of tree and back of tree along horses backs (one or both sides)

This is a product of more than one element being off. However, if the problem is only occurring on one side you should check the straightness of the horse. If the horse is moving so that the sternum is staying directly between the two front legs. Then he is straight if not you must correct the issue in training.

6) improper contact at wither/shoulder pocket (to tight, or to sloppy)

Here again this can have many causes but generally it means the bars are not the right shape for the horse. However a tree can fit perfect and you can negate the fit 100% with improper cinching so you might need to look back to 1.

7) Many types of riggings such as flat plate dig into horses ribs)

The top shape of bar to a large extent determines the angles that the rigging will be coming off the tree. So if the tree is the wrong shape for the back the chance that you will have rigging issues. The saddle maker should also be molding the rigging to the shape of the horse when they construct the saddle. If you have had trouble with flat plate it is not because it is a bad rigging it is more likely that it was improperly applied.

I do see people with every breed deciding that they are a very unique situation. Generally it usually is just that they have become interested enough to notice the reality before them. If you go look at a bunch of other breeds now you will see them differently too. I used to do 6 to 8 saddle fitting clinics a month. I had a lot of people bringing me gaited horses and each would go on about how unique their breed was and they had such special needs. I got to where I was almost be leaving it despite the fact all my training told me the horses were just messed up. I got a hold of Liz as one of the leading experts on gaited horses I figured I would get the straight scoop. I pulled up to her place and looked at her walkers and told her they looked like QH. She laughed at me and said I was used to seeing gaited horses that were all screwed up. Around here every horse is an individual.

David Genadek

[AZThunderPony]

Susan,

Ahh so Whoddie is famous! I’ll tell him that next time he is here.

Let me comment on one of your other posts.

1) rigging (3/4) to 5/8) too far back on rib cage, causes saddle to slip up onto shoulders and cinch to become loose.

This is not a rigging position issue it is a tree fitting issue. Since rigging position is dependant on where the tree maker designed the tree to fit it is really hard to pin point issues in regard to position. If the tree fits properly you should have not have a problem positioning the cinch so that it is behind the elbow when the front leg is back as far as it can go. If you are using a double rigged saddle I would ask if you are using your rear cinch as tight as the front if not then you could have been causing the issue. Jane has documented her work with Liz quite well and probable has some photos of Whoodie with a saddle in the 5/8 position. The saddle she rides is also in the 5/8 positions so you might want to ask her what her experience has been in regard to rigging position.

2) Back of tree digs into the loins

This is common in all breeds and is usually because of two things one the tree does not have enough rock or the saddle is being placed to far back. I put an additional flair on the rear tip of the bar to prevent this from happening and it also lets me direct the rear of the skirt away from the hindquarters when I shape the skirts.

3) pinching at withers

The tree is just not the right shape or it has a downhill orientation and if so you are back to point 1 are you using the rigging properly.

4) tree cutting into the muscling along ribheads

This is a sign that the twist of the bar is incorrect for the shape of the back. You will have more of this issue on the Mustangs that have been more heavily influenced by the Barb. On the horse with a well-sprung rib cage you will get pressure on the bottom edge of the bar.

5) gaps between front of tree and back of tree along horses backs (one or both sides)

This is a product of more than one element being off. However, if the problem is only occurring on one side you should check the straightness of the horse. If the horse is moving so that the sternum is staying directly between the two front legs. Then he is straight if not you must correct the issue in training.

6) improper contact at wither/shoulder pocket (to tight, or to sloppy)

Here again this can have many causes but generally it means the bars are not the right shape for the horse. However a tree can fit perfect and you can negate the fit 100% with improper cinching so you might need to look back to 1.

7) Many types of riggings such as flat plate dig into horses ribs)

The top shape of bar to a large extent determines the angles that the rigging will be coming off the tree. So if the tree is the wrong shape for the back the chance that you will have rigging issues. The saddle maker should also be molding the rigging to the shape of the horse when they construct the saddle. If you have had trouble with flat plate it is not because it is a bad rigging it is more likely that it was improperly applied.

I do see people with every breed deciding that they are a very unique situation. Generally it usually is just that they have become interested enough to notice the reality before them. If you go look at a bunch of other breeds now you will see them differently too. I used to do 6 to 8 saddle fitting clinics a month. I had a lot of people bringing me gaited horses and each would go on about how unique their breed was and they had such special needs. I got to where I was almost be leaving it despite the fact all my training told me the horses were just messed up. I got a hold of Liz as one of the leading experts on gaited horses I figured I would get the straight scoop. I pulled up to her place and looked at her walkers and told her they looked like QH. She laughed at me and said I was used to seeing gaited horses that were all screwed up. Around here every horse is an individual.

David Genadek

Thanks David for pointing out in clearer terms the problems regarding fit with SM's. Also we will have to disagree in regards to how the rigging falls on these horses as a breed. As having bred, raised and trained them for 13 years I do have practical experience regarding the above. As a professional trainer of 35 years I have some experience with fitting horses in general. I have never ran into as much rigging problems in other breeds albeit occasionally a few do occur that I have found in this breed.

Your posts are very informative and I appreciate your comments.

Susan Catt

Bear Paw Ranch

Arizona