97-10 Resources, Singer Class 97

[Grigg]

I recently picked up a 97-10 Singer harness sewing machine and have found some info and I'm still looking for more information. There is also much to read in older threads.

The Army technical manual TM 10-3530-202-24 might have the most useful info in one place, and includes info on several other Singer machines.  https://archive.org/details/TM10-3530-202-24/page/n1/mode/2up   Includes instructions on how to disassemble a lot of things, unfortunately the "Assembly and Installation" that follows is simply "Reverse procedures above".  No real adjustments or timing info that I've found yet, though I haven't read it all word for word.

The corresponding parts manual TM 10-3530-202-24P  (I've ordered but haven't yet seen inside this manual)

Singer Parts list Form 18301 Revised (640) https://site.singeronline.com/ssl/instructions/SINGER_97-10.pdf or https://www.supsew.com/download/Singer/Singer 97-1, -10.pdf

I have a similar original Singer paper parts list that came with my machine.  It has the same form and revision numbers but is only the pictures (no list or text) from the above PDF list, and the pictures appear to have been copied a time or two, a little less clear.

I also have an original Singer "Instructions For Using singer Sewing Machines of Class 97"   Form 8348 Revised (139)    It is helpful but very limited; descriptions of the different models of 97, how to thread it, basic operation, and oiling, nothing more.

I'd like to find an adjusters manual, does anyone have one, know of a PDF, or even what form number it is?  

 

 

Needles are kind of hard to find.

97x3 (round point) and 97x4 (leather point)  

I have one original Singer (now broken) 97x4 size 24 that was 3.000" long and about 2.8" from top end to bottom of eye.  I was able to find new Organ brand 97x3 size 30 which is 3.030" overall, and same 2.8" from top end to bottom of eye. I believe the original needles did not have a scarf but a long and a short groove.  The new Organ 97x3 size 30 also includes a scarf.

From previous threads people mention using the shorter 7x3 or 7x4 needles from the Class 7 by lowering the needle bar and settling for reduced foot lift and sewing capacity.  I already have a 7 class and the attraction of the 97-10 is it's larger sewing capacity, thus I'm not interested in using shorter needles. 7x3 needles however are readily available, also as type 794 H.

Also mentioned were 1000, 1000H, 1001, and 331LR needles, all longer than necessary, so they would be cut shorter.  They all also have a longer point to eye length than the original 97x3 or 97x4, may or may not need to grind the shuttle for clearance, I'm unsure if any other issues arise because of this. All of these needles are also hard to find, can be expensive, and I was only able to find a couple sizes

I've purchased some 1001 and 331LR needles and will try shorting and using them.

Needle guides, one each upper and lower, are an issue too.  I haven't found any anywhere, and they ought to be changed to suit each needles size you use. Mine came with size 28 upper and 27 lower, and they can be used with that size needle and smaller, but obviously doesn't support a smaller needle as well.  The parts manuals I've browsed do not show needle guides large enough for size 30 needles, which is the only size of 97x3 needle I have found to buy.  So without making or modifying guides, or removing them, those needles aren't very useable.

Also looking for a few used parts, does anyone know of someone with one of these 97 machines for parts, or perhaps a source of new parts?

Edited 19 hours ago by Grigg

[Cumberland Highpower]

I have only a little experience with the 97.   I think they were primarily used to sew heavy rigging back in the day, that was something hook and awl machines couldn't do.

 Should be able to simply adjust  the needle bar up or down to compensate for the long needles?

Those singer needles are longer because there's more stuff it has to clear.  Guide/foot wise.  You could probably use a shorter needle with good results if you ran it without the needle guide.  That would depend on what you're planning to sew most likely.

Seems like the old 97's have gone down the obsolescence path much like old Landis 1 and Champion Stitchers?

Edited 9 hours ago by Cumberland Highpower

[Grigg]

There is only 1/8" or a hair less room to move the needle bar up to compensate for a longer needle. Both of the alternatives I have in hand to compare would still need shortening.  

The 1001 needle is 0.430" longer from the top end to the bottom of the eye than the 97x3 needle.
The 331LR needle is 0.535" longer to the eye than the 97x3 needle.

To use the shorter 7x3 or 7x4 needles would reduce sewing capacity by 0.330".  To not use the upper guide you'd gain back about 3/16"  Therefore only reducing the capacity by about 0.140" with a 7x3 needle and no upper guide. That might be the easiest, most needle options, and most economical method of keeping these machines stitching at close to what they could do.  Personally I'm still interested in pursuing/finding the correct 97x3 or 97x4 needles, or shortening and trying some of the longer alternatives.

Is there a place to find detailed needle dimensions or specifications by type or system?

 

What oil to use?  The parts manual says "Type B" or "Type D" oil sold by the Singer Sewing Machine Company, Type D for a "minimum of stain" presumably they're otherwise quite similar. 
In a singer manual (for 31-19) the same oils are described as:

TYPE В - MANUFACTURING MACHINE OIL, HEAVY GRADE
TYPE D - MANUFACTURING MACHINE OIL, STAINLESS, HEAVY GRADE

I can't find what those types translate to today.  Most sewing machine oil today is a clear mineral oil with few to any additives, but it is available in several viscosities for different machines, and I have several on hand but I'm curious to know technically what Singer "Type B" or "Type D" oil is or was, what viscosity.

Edited 6 hours ago by Grigg
more details

[Cumberland Highpower]

I think the original needles are going to be hard to find.  I believe they're out of production by everyone and the lack of needles is what has pushed many away from the old 97's.   I passed on one for that reason.

What type of work do you plan to sew?   I don't think I really ever stitched anything in leather over 11/16"   Can always be a need for capacity though.

Oil?  Use straight 30W oil.    Allot of the more modern, heavy machines use a 30W with a tackifier added (Basically 30w bar and chain oil). Old machines have allot of wear anyway and that helps a bit.   Most of the little machines like a 31 you cite use a lighter weight oil, basically a spindle oil. Any oil is better than no oil, but that's too light for a 97 or any cast iron monster for that matter.

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Cumberland Highpower