Looking for a used cylinder arm machine

[Double U Leather]

Does anyone know of where I might find a reasonably priced cylinder arm machine. I'm getting some orders for briefcases and such, and the table top machine I have just doesn't really cut it. Thanks.

[bruce johnson]

To make the sharp corners on gussets easier you either need a machine that has a small cylinder or one that can be fitted with a stirrup plate. I have done them on a Tippmann Boss, Adler 205, and Ferdco 2000. If all you need a cylinder arm for is briefcases and your flatbed is doing everything else, a used Tippmann may be the most economical. They'll rebuild them if they wear and warranty them like new for not much money. I sure had good luck with mine. Otherwise you are getting up into the short arm machines at $2200 or a little better for an Artisan 3000. You might find the right used machine someplace too.

[TZHunter]

Bruce, I am using my Boss for Briefcases, etc. Had trouble making the corners, and was interested in what you said about possibly a stirrup plate helping. I'm sure I have it, cuz I got the deal a year ago where they threw in all the feet, material guide, and probably the stirrup plate. . . but I don't know what it is or what its used for, or most importantly, how it would help me make those corners easier. . .can you briefly explain? Thanks much for helping the ignorant (or at least uninformed!).

TZHunter (Doug)

[bruce johnson]

Doug.

The stirrup plate will have two raised ridges on either side of the slot. The top of these ridges will be rounded over front to back. The rounding over is a smaller radius than the cylinder arm itself. By raising it up and going over a smaller radius those corners will stay hooked better and roll over easier. Also you just have the width of the ridge to the left of the slot pushing the gusset leather over instead of the distance from the end of the cylinder arm to the slot.

[TZHunter]

Bruce, Thanks much. I'm gonna give that stirrup plate a try. . I'm sure it will make those 90 degree turns on 3/8 or 1/2 thick stuff much more possible and easier. To really benefit from this, doesn't this mean that the difficult area (like in my case a 90 degree corner) will need to be pointing down toward the stirrup plate when sewn? Seems logical that it wouldn't help any if the difficult area is pointing "away" from the stirrup plate, but just making sure I understood.

"Rookie" - didn't mean to hijack your thread, hope you find the right machine for your sewing.

TZHunter

[esantoro]

here are pictures of a stirrup plate and one picture of a holster plate.

ed

[TZHunter]

Thanks Ed. Since I don't sew much "western" stuff, the name stirrup plate made me think it probably wasn't something I'd use. . .but I can already tell it will help a lot on making those sharp corners.

[Doug C]

Ed or Bruce,

I have a sturrip plate like the one in the picture. I am not able to get my machine adjusted to work properly with the sturrip plate. My machine is skipping stitches. It seems like when the loop is formed when the needle is down there is an equal amount of thread on both sides of the needle eye. Is there some adjustment I can make to allow the hook to catch the thread loop.

Doug

[esantoro]

Ed or Bruce,

I have a sturrip plate like the one in the picture. I am not able to get my machine adjusted to work properly with the sturrip plate. My machine is skipping stitches. It seems like when the loop is formed when the needle is down there is an equal amount of thread on both sides of the needle eye. Is there some adjustment I can make to allow the hook to catch the thread loop.

Doug

I have similar troubles with the stirrup plate and usually just stick with the holster plate. The best I can figure is that needle sizes 200 and smaller may have too much deflection after passing the surface of the stirrup plate. A 230 needle seems much thicker than even a 200 needle and probably deflects less. I usually don't use these plates for actual stitching, just to punch the 12 or so holes to get around corners,which are handstitched.

So, in short, I'd also like to know if there's a fix. Bruce?

ed

[bruce johnson]

The first stirrup plate I had was on a Boss, and never had a skipping problem with it. The Adler I had was a 205-64 and since I had the stirrup plate for the Boss, the Boss was relegated to the bags with corners. I sewed on a 205-370 clone for a while and it had a plate that worked for the corners. When I ordered the Ferdco 2000, I got it with the package, the Boss got sold, and have not had a skipping problem there either. I am thinking it may be that the plate is binding the thread when it goes down through the slot? Make sure the needle is hitting the middle of the slot. Other than than, the thread should loop and catch just the same as with a normal harness plate. Needle deflection shouldn't be any more with the stirrup plate than a regular plate. Thinking more here, another thing may be that the stirrup plate is less stable as a platform, and if you are running a double toe foot or left toe it may be deflecting the leather to the left of the slot, pushing it down, and adding some deflection to the needle? I have to run a right toe foot or boot/case foot with my stirrup plate because the right side is wider. I am liking the boot/case foot better now that I have that. You have to be pretty steady how you hold the bag with the stirrup plate, it will rock front to back which is nice to sneak around the outside of those tight corners. It will also tend to rock side to side becasue ot the narrow left side and can get you a wavy line on the bottom of the stitch if you aren't paying attention. The Artisan guys probably have some more insight too. What machine are you running?

[Doug C]

The Artisan guys probably have some more insight too. What machine are you running?

Bruce,

I am running a Artisan 4000 R but the sturrip plate is from Toledo Sewing Machines. Artisan has not had the sturrip plates available for sometime and finnally decided I would try this plate. It looks identical to the one Ed shows in the picture. I have the right and left pressure feet and that does not seem to make much difference. I know what you mean by keeping the peice level on the arm to keep the stitch line straight on the bottom. I fight that all the time. You almost need three or four hands to sew some gussets.

Doug

[bruce johnson]

Doug,

I would call the Artisan guys for their input. I am not sure of the hook clearances and bottom feed dogs and whatever in the 4000.

Actually thinking about this a little more, if you do get some needle deflection, then because the piece is raised up by the plate, it would magnify the amount of deflection at the hook and be more prone to missing. Also the thread may be binding in the groove and not looping like it should. I would try a new needle and make sure there is not more bevel on one side than the other that is causing it to deflect. Then check the looping with the same weight leather on a flat plate vs. the stirrup plate.

On my Adler when I first got it, it would sew great on soft leather and up to about 13 oz combined weights of veg tan. If it got heavier it would start to skip. The hook was just far enough from the needle that if I got any deflection in the heavier leather, it would occassionally miss. We ended up and shimmed the bobbin race out and brought the hook closer to the needle and eliminated the problem. I don't know about other Adlers but if mine skipped, it fed a kink into the thread and made it harder to loop on the next stitch and things went south in a hurry. Skip two and you were done.

[esantoro]

Doug,

I would call the Artisan guys for their input. I am not sure of the hook clearances and bottom feed dogs and whatever in the 4000.

Actually thinking about this a little more, if you do get some needle deflection, then because the piece is raised up by the plate, it would manify the amount of deflection at the hook and be more prone to missing. Also the thread may be binding in the groove and not looping like it should. I would try a new needle and make sure there is not more bevel on one side than the other that is causing it to deflect. Then check the looping with the same weight leather on a flat plate vs. the stirrup plate.

On my Adler when I first got it, it would sew great on soft leather and up to about 13 oz combined weights of veg tan. If it got heavier it would start to skip. The hook was just far enough from the needle that if I got any deflection in the heavier leather, it would occassionally miss. We ended up and shimmed the bobbin race out and brought the hook closer to the needle and eliminated the problem. I don't know about other Adlers but if mine skipped, it fed a kink into the thread and made it harder to loop on the next stitch and things went south in a hurry. Skip two and you were done.

I'd also like to try shimming the shuttle race so that all needles function more or less like a 230/26, which I think gives the best consistency. I started trying to cut out some shims from beer/soda cans, but never got very far. I'd much rather pay to get the next thicker size spacer ring for the 441 clones. in one manual somewhere, various thicknesses were available. I'm sure they are possible to get somewhere. I'll call Artisan.

If I remember, I'll try a 26 needle and a 25 needle with the stirrup plate and test for consistency. I bet the 26 needle will yield better results, due to thicker girth of needle which forms the loop closer to the hook and also resists deflection due to a heavier, thicker needle.

I think shimming is a serious consideration that hasn't been discussed much, especially if you are trying to make the 441 as versatile as possible.

Ed

[tonyc1]

Doug,

I would call the Artisan guys for their input. I am not sure of the hook clearances and bottom feed dogs and whatever in the 4000.

Actually thinking about this a little more, if you do get some needle deflection, then because the piece is raised up by the plate, it would magnify the amount of deflection at the hook and be more prone to missing. Also the thread may be binding in the groove and not looping like it should. I would try a new needle and make sure there is not more bevel on one side than the other that is causing it to deflect. Then check the looping with the same weight leather on a flat plate vs. the stirrup plate.

On my Adler when I first got it, it would sew great on soft leather and up to about 13 oz combined weights of veg tan. If it got heavier it would start to skip. The hook was just far enough from the needle that if I got any deflection in the heavier leather, it would occassionally miss. We ended up and shimmed the bobbin race out and brought the hook closer to the needle and eliminated the problem. I don't know about other Adlers but if mine skipped, it fed a kink into the thread and made it harder to loop on the next stitch and things went south in a hurry. Skip two and you were done.

Bruce, when I got my Adler it came with small black spacers that were numbered #160, #180, #200, #230 and #250. These are spacers for those needles. While I don't change them all the time for every size needle I use, I do if I swap from a #160 to a 230. I mostly use #200 and that seems to handle most jobs very well with no sewing problems.

Tony.

[bruce johnson]

Tony,

Thanks for the input. I sold the Adler a couple years ago. It was an Adler 205-64, and I am not sure if they could use the shims. I am pretty sure the 205-370 uses them. I pretty much set it up to run 346 or 277 thread and never went smaller with that machine. Once we got the race shimmed out, it never gave me much trouble other than breaking a needle now and again.

[tonyc1]

Tony,

Thanks for the input. I sold the Adler a couple years ago. It was an Adler 205-64, and I am not sure if they could use the shims. I am pretty sure the 205-370 uses them. I pretty much set it up to run 346 or 277 thread and never went smaller with that machine. Once we got the race shimmed out, it never gave me much trouble other than breaking a needle now and again.

The one I have is a 205-370 and has been a great machine for 11 years and apart from oil all I ever had to do is pump some grease into the reducer. I do wish it had a longer arm sometimes.

Tony.

[esantoro]

The one I have is a 205-370 and has been a great machine for 11 years and apart from oil all I ever had to do is pump some grease into the reducer. I do wish it had a longer arm sometimes.

Tony.

Tony,

How often do you pump grease into that reducer? I have never done this.

Ed

[tonyc1]

I give it a squirt about every 6 months. I never thought about it when I first got the machine and after a few months of use it developed a rumble which puzzled and worried me for a while 'til I finally discovered what it was and it was running dry!.

Tony.

[esantoro]

I give it a squirt about every 6 months. I never thought about it when I first got the machine and after a few months of use it developed a rumble which puzzled and worried me for a while 'til I finally discovered what it was and it was running dry!.

Tony.

I don't know why I was under the impression that maybe this was something I'd have to do once every five or so years, but I was. I think I've heard a similar rumbling.

What exactly is needed to pump grease in there?

Thanks,

Ed

[tonyc1]

A grease gun, Ed.

[esantoro]

A grease gun, Ed.

I did a quick search.

Are there only cartridge type grease guns? I'd like to be able to buy a small tub of grease and an applicator that would be good for twice a year applications, as I don't have anything else that requires greasing.

perhaps something like this one, as long as it will take a nozzle that will screw into my reducer and can be manually filled with grease rather than requiring a full cartridge.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/disp...temnumber=93486

Ed

Edited February 3, 2009 by esantoro

[tonyc1]

I've never seen one that small, Ed. Mine is a cartridge gun but I haven't used cartridges since I gave up operating plant, I bought a small tin of grease and just poked it in the gun with a flat stick! As long as it will take a flexible hose and a fitting to go on the nipple it should work ok. Try some place that sells auto parts.

Tony

[esantoro]

I'd also like to try shimming the shuttle race so that all needles function more or less like a 230/26, which I think gives the best consistency. I started trying to cut out some shims from beer/soda cans, but never got very far. I'd much rather pay to get the next thicker size spacer ring for the 441 clones. in one manual somewhere, various thicknesses were available. I'm sure they are possible to get somewhere. I'll call Artisan.

If I remember, I'll try a 26 needle and a 25 needle with the stirrup plate and test for consistency. I bet the 26 needle will yield better results, due to thicker girth of needle which forms the loop closer to the hook and also resists deflection due to a heavier, thicker needle.

I think shimming is a serious consideration that hasn't been discussed much, especially if you are trying to make the 441 as versatile as possible.

Ed

I just now measured the girth of Schmetz 24 (1.65mm), 25(1.82mm), and 26(2.12mm) needles. The 26 needle is .3mm thicker than the 25 needle, which is only .17mm thicker than the 24 needle. This means that 26 needles are substantially thicker than 25 needles, thus substantially less prone to needle deflection. I would have expected standard increments.

ed

[Doug C]

I just now measured the girth of Schmetz 24 (1.65mm), 25(1.82mm), and 26(2.12mm) needles. The 26 needle is .3mm thicker than the 25 needle, which is only .17mm thicker than the 24 needle. This means that 26 needles are substantially thicker than 25 needles, thus substantially less prone to needle deflection. I would have expected standard increments.

ed

Ed,

I am playing around with the needle size. I am having much better luck with the 25 needle and the sturrip plate.

Doug

[esantoro]

Ed,

I am playing around with the needle size. I am having much better luck with the 25 needle and the sturrip plate.

Doug

Doug,

There's a certain bit of leverage on the needle when used with the stirrup plate. I've noticed much more deflection with 25 needles than with 26. Are you moving up to 25 needles from thinner needles or have you always been using 25 needles?

I had been thinking for a while to move from 277/207 thread to 346/277 for most of my work. One thing that prompted me to commit to the decision was a conversation with Vernon Weaver, who spoke about less needle deflection with size 26 needles, which got me thinking more about the merits of 26 needles and 346/277 thread.

I was also told that once that these 441 clones are setup at the factory to work best with 26 needles. They'll do 24 and 25 quite well, but the best with 26. I figure that with a standard setup, these machines have to work best with one particular needle, which I now think is 26. I'd like to get some shims or spacers so that when I use the other needle sizes, i can set them up to work more similarly to the 26, which slightly brushes against the hook in the needle's downward travel. It slightly brushes the hook and then flicks the loop out a bit which is then ready for when the hook makes its forward travel.

ed