Romal reins

[rawhider]

What do you mean one rein or two?

As far as a the bosal rubbing, I've never had one raw a horse before. Never. And If you have that problem, get yourself a latigo bosal. They are way softer, but still have the body of a rawhide one if built correctly.

I've seen many more snaffle bit horses with sores and wounds on the corners of their mouths than thena bosal, aswell as bitless bridles. Alan is right, you aren't thinking of the bosal or the spade in the right mindset. They are signal tools, not leverage (which is how a bitless bridle works). Anything that is a signal tool can do damage if in the wrong hands, so if you don't know how to use it, don't. But I think I'm beating my head against a wall here trying to explain this. It's really not worth it.

[Alan Bell]

I'm going to continue this because it is a bit important as it relates to form and function even though it is not strictly about braiding. A bosal/hackmore is designed to work much like a snaffle in that they are designed to be used with TWO hands. That is the form and function of both. The snaffle is designed with the hinge in the middle so that you can affect a direct response from the horse by applying pressure in the corner of it mouth and across the bar on one side of the mouth without a major cue on the opposite side. When I want to go left I use the left rein and the snaffle bar on th left side of the horses mouth comes into contact with the jaw and/or corner of the mouth and the horse will tip its nose in the direction of the turn so the horse will stay in frame. That is the essence of the snaffle. A two hand bit meant to help teach the horse fundamental cues while maintaining frame. The hackmore will cue the horse indirectly by pushing on the opposite cheek/jawbone. When I want to go left I make contact with the left rein and the hack pushes the horses nose from the opposite jaw/cheek. This is the essence of the bosal/hack to help teach a horse fundamental cues while maintaining frame. In the snaffle if you cue to stop or basically to cease forward movement using both reins equally yo are setting up a situation where the joint in the middle of the snaffle can cause it to scissor the jaw of the horse and allow the joint to poke the horse in the roof of its mouth. With the bosal if you cue to cease forward movement then you are setting up a situation where the horse can use its head, neck and spine to brace against the pull. The horse will feel it down its spine and will try and transfer the energy into the ground. With both the snaffle and the bosal you can cue to cease forward movement and also to begin backward movement with one rein by making the connection between the rein, the bit or bosal, the nose or mouth, the neck, spine and to the horses feet NOT into the ground. When the horse feels that connection it will respond. Form and function for the snaffle and the bosal. That is why they are able to be used alternately by many trainers but you have to understand the form and function of what you are using. For me in addition to the already similar function I can use a bosal to help the horse frame up in a collected manner by feeling out the horses nose and searching for a bit of tuck while driving the horse onto the hackmore. The same can and is done with the snaffle but I find the bosal being outside of the horses head makes it easier than the snaffle inside its mouth. The horse is more "worried" when asking for collection with the snaffle than the bosal because the snaffle can cause pain to the sensitive inside of the horse mouth while the hack or bosal is on the outside. A difference in the form and function that I think is important and more importantly i think it is important to the horse. As braiders we should understand the form and function of the gear we make or don't make it. Make something you truly believe in! Study from folks that know what you are trying to learn. Don't just take my word for this ask, experiment, seek explore! Then when someone ask you why you do or don't do this or that and why you would use this instead of that you have an answer that makes sense and helps the person asking the question to improve. Braiding is almost a lost art. It is an art and worthy of study. But the art comes from taking something that is a tool and making it EXTRA SPECIAL! But don't forget........IT IS STILL A TOOL!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[rawhide1]

Hell fellas thats why I like the horses outside of the Wal Mart. They dont care what ya put on their head their gonna just rock back and forth no matter what and stop when the quarter runs out!!

Mike

[entiendo]

Well gees rawhider you're no fun! When I mean 1 rein, I mean 1 rein at a time for each request. Even a whoa. I do own snaffles with links though and have pretty much switched over just because they are better, although I haven't trained other horses besides mine in a few years now. The good part about that is my horse is trained, it used to be I was always on something green! LOL

Of course any tool is can be abused in the wrong hands some are just easier to abuse than others. And I'm beating my head against a wall as well, but I do love to talk horse training but don't want to dig to far into it because this isn't a training board. And these days I actually prefer braiding talk. We like what we like and we use what works for us and that really goes for horse training and braiding. So many ways to do things right. I can't believe any of us would continue to do something that didn't work. And it's good advice not to make anything you don't believe in, that's why I haven't. I think they are beautiful though and do want to make one but I'm not sure what I want to do for a core yet.

And I don't have any pictures with my horse working..darn. This computer is full of braiding pictures my old computer has all the horse training pictures.

Edited March 1, 2009 by entiendo

[rawhider]

Just out of curiuosity, what is your riding discipline? That might have something to do with the missunderstandings here.

All I'm trying to say is that the hackamore is the best tool for creating suppleness and responsiveness in the horse. Alan elaborated on that quite a bit by explaining how it works (thanks Alan!). The reason I like to use it is two-fold. (The following statements are claimed assuming that the bosal is used proplery)

1) Tradition. Vaqueros have been using the bosal since the mission days in California. The monks recruited the local Indians to care for the cattle, but the law in those days prevented the Indians from getting steel for fear of them fashioning weapons and revolting. This also prevented them from fashioning bits for their horses, so they perfected a contraption that the Spanish had been using since the Moors invaded Spain in 711 A.D. It's remarkable that this peice of equipement really hasn't changed since then.

2) I use it because of the responsive softess it creates in a horse. The bosal enforces flextion not only at the poll (which you see alot of with snaffle bit horses) but also encourages flextion at the withers. This allows the horses back to come up, allowing the hind end to engage, thus achieving a proper frame and collection. This is all done with NO tension in the rein(s). You feel the horse thru the bosal, and control the speed, direction with your body. This foundation sets the horse up for the spade bit. The spade is a SINGAL bit, NOT a leverage bit, and anyone who argues otherwise is no horseman, but that is a discussion for another time.

Ultimately the hackamore suits best the Vaquero style of riding and training. I think that the bosal will help the horse and the rider, no matter what your discipline, but that is up to you. I believe that anyone who rides a horse, no matter what the discipline, should try and ride in the hackamore, just to feel a different animal. It will enhance your awaredness of the horse aswell as make you a more sensitive rider.

[entiendo]

Glad to see you came back to the discussion.

First off from the beginning my problem with the Vaquero tools is they are so easy to abuse when you compare it to some of the other tools available. And that's really my only beef with them. For example, all those things you say you get from your horse in a bosal.....

I use it because of the responsive softess it creates in a horse. The bosal enforces flextion not only at the poll (which you see alot of with snaffle bit horses) but also encourages flextion at the withers. This allows the horses back to come up, allowing the hind end to engage, thus achieving a proper frame and collection. This is all done with NO tension in the rein(s). You feel the horse thru the bosal, and control the speed, direction with your body. This foundation sets the horse up for the spade bit.

Your horse gives you things things because your horse is more motivated in a bosal. I've rode in them too and you are right, it feels great! Almost like you aren't riding a green horse, almost, but not quite. But that same tool in angry or uneducated hands can really hurt a horse and *I* believe more so than a snaffle. Course a side pull or halter is even better for a true greenie, even better than than that, matched with the right horse, but that doesn't always happen, hell I don't think it even happens most of the time.

And let's not forget what I said in an earlier post.

And most your Vaquero spade bits are not use properly either. Many are use as a tool of leverage rather than a way of quietly communicating with a horse.

So you see I do know what they are used for. I think that goes for all leverage type bits, but most people move up because they can't control their horse and need more leverage to stop.

What do I ride...I'm disipline neutral! I did take some lessons from a gal studing Vaquaro training and I tried to get into those classes myself but sadly it didn't work out. And one of the highlights of my life was spending the weekend with Leslie Desmond. She's so gifted I really don't think she knows how she does a lot of the things she does, she just does it. I think one would need to spend a lot of time with her to really get what she teaches. On the other hand I love watching this set of DVD's I have where this dressage rider teaches you about 1 part of the horse and how to get that part. So really I study anything that's for the horse. It used to be I put all my time into thinking and doing anything "horse", kind of like my braiding now. In those years I'm sad to say I saw more bad horsemanship than good, more rushing training with pain and gimmicks than taking the time to really train. Yeah, I probably hung around in the wrong circles, maybe that's why I keep to myself these days and ride with a gal like likes Parelli... I try not to tease her about it to much.

[rawhider]

Leslie Desmond, huh? Was she drunk most of the time?

As for the Vaquero tools being "too" easy to miss-use, I will have to disagree. While the hackamore may rub a horse, there are things you can do to change that- a poorly made one will not have the strings beveled properly, make sure you shape it before you use it, or get a latigo bosal.

The thing that makes it so incredible is if it's not working, YOU are using it wrong. The horse will quickly learn to lean on it if you don't use it right, so you end up dragging them around, and loose that feel.

But this has turned into a pissing match,not a discussion. I'm not going to agree with you that the bitless bridle is better, you don't want to admit that the bosal is better for the rider and the horse.

Almost like you aren't riding a green horse, almost, but not quite.

P.S. we ride our horses in a halter for about the first 5 rides, then it's into the hackamore for about a year to a year and a half. Hardly a green horse. I think that your braiding is very nice, but you need to broaden your horse horizons a little bit.

[entiendo]

P.S. we ride our horses in a halter for about the first 5 rides, then it's into the hackamore for about a year to a year and a half. Hardly a green horse. I think that your braiding is very nice, but you need to broaden your horse horizons a little bit.

What I meant by my statement is I've tried to put a few horses in bosals but they ended up with sore chins so I didn't get far. And I'm not the only one with this problem. Maybe a latigo one would help. I haven't thought about using one in years. But *I* have tried them, several times, but you haven't tried mine. Funny, I think it's you that needs to expand, but I'm sure your horses are very nice. What do you do with your horses?

A pissing match, really, I don't feel that way but I'll stop here if you do.

And that's not very nice, Lesley Desmond drunk. She's been sober for quite some time from the impression I got, but we didn't discuss that. She only drank coffee or water from what I saw.