Romal reins

[Alan Bell]

Entiendo, Que Paso no Etiendes? The bosal just SIT THERE on the horses head! It can not be harsh it has no way to do anything. It is an inanimate object! It is the hands of the rider that decides whether or not a bit or bosal is harsh. Are you saying that in your hands a bosal is just to harsh? Then LIGHTEN UP!!! LOL

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[rawhider]

Ha that's funny!

I'm sorry, entiendo, but Alan is right. There is no way that a bosal can be harsh unless you are using it incorrectly.

As for people who don't know how to fit a bosal properly or where to find good ones, it's our job to educate them.

I'm glad that your bitless bridle works well for you. I'm sure it's much better for your horse that you use that and not a bosal.

[entiendo]

Ha that's funny!

I'm sorry, entiendo, but Alan is right. There is no way that a bosal can be harsh unless you are using it incorrectly.

As for people who don't know how to fit a bosal properly or where to find good ones, it's our job to educate them.

I'm glad that your bitless bridle works well for you. I'm sure it's much better for your horse that you use that and not a bosal.

*Where is the smilie face there it's pulling it's hair out* I'm not talking about my own horsemanship, I'm talking about the average owner.

Maybe it is all about education but educating the hands is very difficult and a bosal can be a harsh tool. Most never work hard enough to develope the timeing of the release. And most your Vaquero spade bits are not use properly either. Many are use as a tool of leverage rather than a way of quitely communicating with a horse.

Anyway, are both of you telling me you never made a horse bleed under the chin where the bosal sits?

Not only that a snaffle allows for much better side to side commuincation.

[Alan Bell]

If the horse is scratched up under it's chin it is notthe bosal that caused it but the person! And yes i have. But with that same bosali have also started one that did not get scratched and right now i have a colt that has a blaze face and in the summertime his nose will scratch with the same bosal that I've used on him and 2 other horses that have never been scratched! You are still not thinking about the bosal or the bit in the correct manner. A snaffle pulled equally on both reins will scissor the horses jawbone like a nutcracker and then the hinge in the middle will poke the colt in the roof of its mouth! But it is the rider that causes that to happen NOT the snaffle. Far more horses become head tossers and nose pokers because of improper use of the snaffle than the bosal has ever seen

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[entiendo]

You are still not thinking about the bosal or the bit in the correct manner. A snaffle pulled equally on both reins will scissor the horses jawbone like a nutcracker and then the hinge in the middle will poke the colt in the roof of its mouth!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Yep, sure does that's why I don't use my snaffles with 2 reins...And I think that's why the snaffle with a link in the middle is so popular.

I just don't like to worry about rubbing those horses raw under the chin. If I didn't have to worry about that I would probably use a bosal from time to time, depending on the horse. However I teach one rein cues before I move onto 2 reins so I would use the snaffle first. Course with my nifty little bitless pictured above it is designed to work with 1 rein or 2, and I really like that. Course it does have one design flaw I do not like. The maker wants the nose band pretty snug, kind of like an English noseband and it doesn't allow for much jaw movement. So needless to say I don't use the bridle until my horse can wear the noseband somewhat loose.

And it's always the uneducated hand that makes the head tossers and nose pokers.

[rawhider]

What do you mean one rein or two?

As far as a the bosal rubbing, I've never had one raw a horse before. Never. And If you have that problem, get yourself a latigo bosal. They are way softer, but still have the body of a rawhide one if built correctly.

I've seen many more snaffle bit horses with sores and wounds on the corners of their mouths than thena bosal, aswell as bitless bridles. Alan is right, you aren't thinking of the bosal or the spade in the right mindset. They are signal tools, not leverage (which is how a bitless bridle works). Anything that is a signal tool can do damage if in the wrong hands, so if you don't know how to use it, don't. But I think I'm beating my head against a wall here trying to explain this. It's really not worth it.

[Alan Bell]

I'm going to continue this because it is a bit important as it relates to form and function even though it is not strictly about braiding. A bosal/hackmore is designed to work much like a snaffle in that they are designed to be used with TWO hands. That is the form and function of both. The snaffle is designed with the hinge in the middle so that you can affect a direct response from the horse by applying pressure in the corner of it mouth and across the bar on one side of the mouth without a major cue on the opposite side. When I want to go left I use the left rein and the snaffle bar on th left side of the horses mouth comes into contact with the jaw and/or corner of the mouth and the horse will tip its nose in the direction of the turn so the horse will stay in frame. That is the essence of the snaffle. A two hand bit meant to help teach the horse fundamental cues while maintaining frame. The hackmore will cue the horse indirectly by pushing on the opposite cheek/jawbone. When I want to go left I make contact with the left rein and the hack pushes the horses nose from the opposite jaw/cheek. This is the essence of the bosal/hack to help teach a horse fundamental cues while maintaining frame. In the snaffle if you cue to stop or basically to cease forward movement using both reins equally yo are setting up a situation where the joint in the middle of the snaffle can cause it to scissor the jaw of the horse and allow the joint to poke the horse in the roof of its mouth. With the bosal if you cue to cease forward movement then you are setting up a situation where the horse can use its head, neck and spine to brace against the pull. The horse will feel it down its spine and will try and transfer the energy into the ground. With both the snaffle and the bosal you can cue to cease forward movement and also to begin backward movement with one rein by making the connection between the rein, the bit or bosal, the nose or mouth, the neck, spine and to the horses feet NOT into the ground. When the horse feels that connection it will respond. Form and function for the snaffle and the bosal. That is why they are able to be used alternately by many trainers but you have to understand the form and function of what you are using. For me in addition to the already similar function I can use a bosal to help the horse frame up in a collected manner by feeling out the horses nose and searching for a bit of tuck while driving the horse onto the hackmore. The same can and is done with the snaffle but I find the bosal being outside of the horses head makes it easier than the snaffle inside its mouth. The horse is more "worried" when asking for collection with the snaffle than the bosal because the snaffle can cause pain to the sensitive inside of the horse mouth while the hack or bosal is on the outside. A difference in the form and function that I think is important and more importantly i think it is important to the horse. As braiders we should understand the form and function of the gear we make or don't make it. Make something you truly believe in! Study from folks that know what you are trying to learn. Don't just take my word for this ask, experiment, seek explore! Then when someone ask you why you do or don't do this or that and why you would use this instead of that you have an answer that makes sense and helps the person asking the question to improve. Braiding is almost a lost art. It is an art and worthy of study. But the art comes from taking something that is a tool and making it EXTRA SPECIAL! But don't forget........IT IS STILL A TOOL!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[rawhide1]

Hell fellas thats why I like the horses outside of the Wal Mart. They dont care what ya put on their head their gonna just rock back and forth no matter what and stop when the quarter runs out!!

Mike

[entiendo]

Well gees rawhider you're no fun! When I mean 1 rein, I mean 1 rein at a time for each request. Even a whoa. I do own snaffles with links though and have pretty much switched over just because they are better, although I haven't trained other horses besides mine in a few years now. The good part about that is my horse is trained, it used to be I was always on something green! LOL

Of course any tool is can be abused in the wrong hands some are just easier to abuse than others. And I'm beating my head against a wall as well, but I do love to talk horse training but don't want to dig to far into it because this isn't a training board. And these days I actually prefer braiding talk. We like what we like and we use what works for us and that really goes for horse training and braiding. So many ways to do things right. I can't believe any of us would continue to do something that didn't work. And it's good advice not to make anything you don't believe in, that's why I haven't. I think they are beautiful though and do want to make one but I'm not sure what I want to do for a core yet.

And I don't have any pictures with my horse working..darn. This computer is full of braiding pictures my old computer has all the horse training pictures.

Edited March 1, 2009 by entiendo

[rawhider]

Just out of curiuosity, what is your riding discipline? That might have something to do with the missunderstandings here.

All I'm trying to say is that the hackamore is the best tool for creating suppleness and responsiveness in the horse. Alan elaborated on that quite a bit by explaining how it works (thanks Alan!). The reason I like to use it is two-fold. (The following statements are claimed assuming that the bosal is used proplery)

1) Tradition. Vaqueros have been using the bosal since the mission days in California. The monks recruited the local Indians to care for the cattle, but the law in those days prevented the Indians from getting steel for fear of them fashioning weapons and revolting. This also prevented them from fashioning bits for their horses, so they perfected a contraption that the Spanish had been using since the Moors invaded Spain in 711 A.D. It's remarkable that this peice of equipement really hasn't changed since then.

2) I use it because of the responsive softess it creates in a horse. The bosal enforces flextion not only at the poll (which you see alot of with snaffle bit horses) but also encourages flextion at the withers. This allows the horses back to come up, allowing the hind end to engage, thus achieving a proper frame and collection. This is all done with NO tension in the rein(s). You feel the horse thru the bosal, and control the speed, direction with your body. This foundation sets the horse up for the spade bit. The spade is a SINGAL bit, NOT a leverage bit, and anyone who argues otherwise is no horseman, but that is a discussion for another time.

Ultimately the hackamore suits best the Vaquero style of riding and training. I think that the bosal will help the horse and the rider, no matter what your discipline, but that is up to you. I believe that anyone who rides a horse, no matter what the discipline, should try and ride in the hackamore, just to feel a different animal. It will enhance your awaredness of the horse aswell as make you a more sensitive rider.