Cheyenne Roll, how to?

[timjtodd]

I am working on my second saddle and am going to put a Cheyenne roll on it. My question is how many layers of leather do you usually put in the Cheyenne roll before you put on the cantle binding? I know you have one for the seat and one for the back of the cantle, but do you put in a filler piece or two between those? Thanks for any input you could give.

[steve mason]

I want my binds as firm and ridged as possible, in my opinion I see way to binds that are loose or floppy when the saddle is new let along years down the road.

In my binds there is 4 layers or leather before the final bind is put on, so in total you are sewing through six layers. On the back side there is the cantle back, then you take the cantle back off and install a back cantle filler that is skived to paper thin with only about 3/4 to 1" over lapping the back cantle, then glue the back cantle into place and fold the back cantle filler down. Now finish all your ground work. Then install the front side cantle filler, it should overlap your ground seat from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2" . Then you seat goes on. This will add up to your 4 layers. When you fit the bind put the top leading edge as close to the front edge of the cantle as possible, this will help firm up your bind. Most makers seem to fit the leading edge about a 1/2 to 5/8" back of the front cantle edge, then there will be more bind going out the back therefore easier to flop around. When stitching the bind you will have to angle your awl back with the method I use, if the bind edge is back aways your awl will be running straight up and down. I will post a photo of a finished bind, notice how close the leading edge is to front side of the cantle.

Again, throughout all the steps mentioned here is to get me to the final result of a rock hard bind with no movement in it at all.

I am working on my second saddle and am going to put a Cheyenne roll on it. My question is how many layers of leather do you usually put in the Cheyenne roll before you put on the cantle binding? I know you have one for the seat and one for the back of the cantle, but do you put in a filler piece or two between those? Thanks for any input you could give.

[timjtodd]

Thanks for the info. Steve. That is a very clean and solid looking roll. You wouldn't happen to have any photos of the intermediate steps would you?

[steve mason]

If you click on this link http://www.saddleblog.blogspot.com/ it is my blog, go back to the 2007 archives, you will find a few photos of a straight up bind and also some with a cheyenne roll. I do not use the back cantle filler in a straight up bind, only on Cheyenne's.

Thanks for the info. Steve. That is a very clean and solid looking roll. You wouldn't happen to have any photos of the intermediate steps would you?

[timjtodd]

Perfect. Thanks Steve.

[figthnbullrider]

just out of curiosity is there a reason for doing a cheyenne roll other then looks. i know most saddles these days have them but i never knew why

[barra]

My understanding is they were developed so that a rope would not catch on the cantle. Sort of an up and over ramp if that makes sense.

Barra

[Tosch]

just out of curiosity is there a reason for doing a cheyenne roll other then looks. i know most saddles these days have them but i never knew why

From what I have gathered:

-"The roll, along the top of the cantle, provides a softer surface (When someone lands on it "accidentially") and a finger hold when lifting the saddle, but is generally regarded as a mainly ornamental feature."

- "To hold the stuff behind the cantle behind the cantle"

The first quote without the (...) is from "Saddlemaking in Wyoming" pg 34.

It is also mentioned there " The roll cantle was apparently orginated in Frank Meana's shop in Cheyenne; at least, it appeared first in Meana's 1874 catalog. The rolls were fairly common in the 1870 and 1880s, but went out of fashion in the 1890s. In the mid-1930s the made a reappearance under the name Cheyenne roll. The Cheyenne roll is almost universal on modern saddles."

I received the book mentioned as a gift from my penpal Verlane when I stopped by for a visit in June last year. Unfortunately there will be no more visits....but glad to have known her.

Tosch

[bruce johnson]

I had heard when I was pretty young that the reason for the roll was to keep the rope from ridng up the cantle back when it got around behind and clotheslining the rider off. Anyone who has ever been there knows the feeling. I recall someone else (maybe Greg?) saying the same thing before the crash.

[barra]

I had heard when I was pretty young that the reason for the roll was to keep the rope from ridng up the cantle back when it got around behind and clotheslining the rider off. Anyone who has ever been there knows the feeling. I recall someone else (maybe Greg?) saying the same thing before the crash.

Bruce. That is what I was trying to say, but somehow my version now looks like total gibberish.

Barra

[jonwatsabaugh]

I wanted to add another question to the mix here since the Cheyenne roll topic is in the forefront. I'm desiring to refine the seat where it breaks over the cantle. For instance, if you look at Keith Seidel's rigs, the cantle perimeter has a very defined, sharp edge and the binding fits very close to that edge. My question is this. Do you have to skive the seat leather thin where it breaks over, or put a deep gouge line, or both to get that hard break?

Jon

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Jon,

One thing some of our customers like is a small bevel on the cantle - 3/8" down and about 1/16" to 1/8" back. I think this started for us in duplicating an old tree which had it and the customer liked it so much that he ordered more the same, as have some others. It is small enough to be unnoticed on the finished saddle. They use it for Cheyenne rolls to get a better break and on straight up bindings to get the binding that little bit further back and cut down wear. Just another idea, especially since you can make it the way you want it.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[kseidel]

Getting the seat to break sharper at the top of the cantle is mostly dependant on what you do on the edge of the cantle underneath the seat. Like most things on a saddle, what you do first will affect what you do later. Making the top edge of the cantle squared off and sharp , and as hard as possible will greatly help to make the seat break over sharply. I do not skive the break thinner, only to make it the same thickness all around the cantle. Thinner leather is harder to mold and sharpen. As the seat dries, you can sharper the edge further.

Over the years my cheyenne rolls have evolved from thick and rounded to thinner and sharper. Mostly cosmetic

When trying to make them thinner and more refined, I needed to find better ways to keep the roll stiff. I now use a rawhide filler, cut to shape and nailed to the top of the cantle.The front edge of this filler makes a very sharp and hard edge to break the seat over. And a very rigid cheyenne roll that will never soften; without the extra thickness of leather fillers.

Keith

[steveh]

Keith,

I had some questions about the rawhide cheyenne roll filler? When you cut the rawhide to shape is in semi moist state so that you can shape it? When nailing the rawhide to the top of cantel do you mean the very top?, can that be nailed with out splitting to wood?What about sewing the binding, is the rawhide still in a semi soft form to get the awl thru? Thank You ,

Steve

[kseidel]

Steve, I cut the rawhide dry and nail it onto the tree dry and stitch the binding with the rawhide dry. Have tried working it moist, but it always dried mis-shapen. I just cut it with a sharp pair of tin snips. I haven't had any problem with splitting the wood as it is sandwiched between the rawhide covering. Sometimes I miss the center and the nail makes a bulge between the wood and rawhide. I use a fairly slender hardened ring shank nail. Keith