Cementing leather during holster assembly

[Denster]

I read this thread with some interest. I’ve wondered for some time about the similarity of Elmer’s Glue-All and Leatherweld. Just was never motivated to experiment. I’ve used Leatherweld exclusively for a couple of years now, having switched from Barge’s to cut down on the set up time and have been very pleased with it. Quick set up and very strong bond. I’ve also used Glue-All for general purpose woodworking when I wanted time to position the pieces and the work would be doweled or screwed. In that application I have no complaints. Just to be clear about what we are talking about here. Glue-All is a white glue but very different from the Elmer’s white glue you get in the school section at Wally-World, that glue only offers a temporary and weak bond adequate for school projects and safe if eaten. Glue-All is a permanent bond glue best for porous materials such as paper, cloth, (leather is porous) and good for semi porous such as wood and pottery. It is sold in the hardware section by the 4oz, pt, qt and gallon, pretty inexpensively I might add. Yellow woodworking glues mentioned in some of the responses are a different animal entirely.

I decided to do a direct comparison between Glue-All and Leatherweld in several areas and these are the results.

Observations: Glue-All and Leatherweld are both the same color and viscosity. As near as I can tell smell the same and taste similar.

Dry time: I smeared a thin layer of both Leatherweld and Glue all on the flesh side of Veg-Tan hide. The Leatherweld dried beyond tack in two minutes the Glue-All beyond tack in just under four minutes.

Bond: I glued several straps of 8oz veg-tan flesh side to flesh side clamped and let dry for ten minutes. I took four of the straps and threw them into a sink full of hot water to soak and proceeded to pull apart a strap glued with Leather weld and a strap glued with Glue-All.

Leatherweld: Separated through the glue line with a strong pull, the bond was more than adequate for sewing and handling.

Glue-All : Separated through the glue line with about the same force required for Leatherweld again adequate for sewing and handling.

I then removed the four straps from the sink, which were by now thoroughly saturated. I put one each of Leatherweld and Glue-All in the convection oven set at 180deg. I then proceeded to pull apart the other two straps from the soak.

Leatherweld: Separated through the glue line with only slightly less force than when dry.

Glue-All: Separated through the glue line with about the same amount of force.

After an hour in the convection oven the two straps had curled and discolored. I removed them and pulled them apart.

Leatherweld: No separation noted on the edges a significant amount of force was required to pull apart and separation was not through the glue line instead leather was pulled from the opposing piece.

Glue-All: No separation of edges and again significant force was required to pull apart and separation was not through glue line but leather pulled from opposing face.

The final test was to glue straps and let dry for several hours.

Leatherweld: Significant force required to separate. Separation was not through glue line rather from leather being pulled from opposing face.

Glue-All: Again significant force required to separate and separation was not through the glue line but from leather pulled from opposing face.

As a matter of curiosity I bonded two pieces together. One of which was glued with Leatherweld and the other with Glue-All. The bond obtained after ten minutes dry time clamped was indistinguishable from those obtained with same type gluing.

It kind of looks to me as if old Lobo might be on to something

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

That's the kind of information I was looking for in the first place - Thanks Denster. I would like to hear about it if you ave any similar comparisons between Leatherweld and Barge's, or for that matter the Elmer's glue Lobo was using.

It sounds like the Elmer’s Glue-All would hold over time even after being exposed to water, and might be a viable alternative to cement (as long as there is no loss in quality, of course). The faster cure time could be handy for holsters, although I could see it possibly being a detriment when gluing belt blanks.

How easy is it to apply, and does it spread on light or heavy? Does it absorb quickly or just set on the surface of the leather? Since you have been using it for a while, have you found the flexibility of the Leatherweld (after it sets) to be adequate for things like belts that will bend and flex repeatedly, or do you think the bond would crack when the glue has set for weeks? If you're not sure, does the glue act more like rubber or hard plasic once it has dried in open air?

[Denster]

The Elmer's Glue-All is what Lobo was using. The leatherweld dries clear as does the Elmers and is flexible. How thick you put it on determines your working time. Thinly spread you have a couple of minutes. Good for holsters. When I'm doing belts I put down a wetter layer with a foam brush and you have time to do both the belt and the liner. The belt I'm wearing right now is 8oz veg-tan lined with 4oz calfskin. Made it about two years ago and glued up with leatherweld and no problems. No cracking and no separation.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Thanks again, Denster. That is what I wanted to know. I do have one more question regarding both the Leatherweld and the Elmer's Glue-all; how does the glue respond to sanding edges even on your leather projects? Does it ball up, or can you tell it is there at all?

[Denster]

You can't tell it is there at all. I take great care to get the glue clear out to the edge on all surfaces. If you get some squeeze out it can just be wiped off.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Well, it certainly sounds like it would be suitable from your description, Denster. I have thought about it, and I still probably won't ever switch from Barge's or Master's cement, myself. For me, it isn't worth taking the chance on the other product just to save money, especially when there is unparalleled evidence from thousands of holsters made by the best in the business that traditional cement works well. I do appreciate you sharing this information, though. Thanks again.

[Denster]

No one was suggesting you switch. In any case you wouldn't save any money with Leatherweld, it is more expensive than Barges. I only decided to try it when I observed John Bianchi recommending it. As to the comparison with Elmer's Glue-All that is just what I observed.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Sorry, but it kind of seemed like the original post implied the suggestion to switch to Elmer's for the cost savings.... If, in fact, it was merely an observation, then truth be told so was my last post, so take it for what it's worth.

John Bianchi definitely knows his stuff, and I very much value his opinion and experience. He has probably forgotten more about leather than a lot of us will ever know. He pioneered some of the concepts in modern holster making. I would suggest that anyone be careful with some of his practices in relation to ccw holsters, though, as some things like saturating the holster in hot oil is more applicable to cowboy rigs, and would be detrimental to a ccw holster in the long run.

[Denster]

No need to apologize no offense taken. I think Lobo's original post was more presenting his observation and an option rather than a suggestion to change, but that's just the way I took it. Rather than rely on another posters statement that it was not a safe and secure methodology for constructing a holster and it had been conclusively shown, which it had not, and to satisfy my curiosity I decided to do some tests. Before I made a switch to Glue-All I'd do still more testing. Since I've got a couple of Gallons of Leatherweld that won't be anytime soon.

For the record Bianchi does not soak holsters in Hot oil. In the DVD series your are refering to he mentions warming the oil during the winter time to about 80degrees which is the same thing it recommends on the gallons I buy from Weaver's. As to soaking, the holster and belt he makes in the series are 7oz lined with 6oz. That will soak up a lot of neetsfoot without affecting the integrity of the holster. It would be totally out of place on a CCW rig.

Speaking of CCW I looked at your site. Damn nice holsters. If you weren't so far behind I'd order one and I make holsters.

[Shorts]

Denster, good experiment. You hit some points I was concerned about during my build process affecting the glue. Thanks.

[K-Man]

Never mind.

Edited March 23, 2009 by K-Man

[Denster]

Shorts. Glad you found it useful.

[K-Man]

I stand behind my comments 100%, as they were made based on my own research and testing.

People researching this subject can evaluate all of the information posted here and determine for themselves what they might wish to do.

Some of the wood glues might be a viable alternative. I've used Titebond III in the application of exotic skins to a variety of subbase materials, to include aluminum and wood. I've met with excellent results. Titebond III is a waterproof glue. Since the beginning of this discussion, I've also tested it in the application of gluing veg tanned leather pieces together. After following the directions on the container, it's held together. It dries basically clear. I cannot even pull the two pieces of leather apart. I've not yet sewn the leather pieces together. It's way too early to tell how it will hold up long term, but based on these initial results, it does show some promise.

[Rayban]

Well lookie what I found in my shop last night....it's been sitting on a shelf, empty, probably all winter, but I now remember picking it up at a drug-store, where this was all they had. And I also remember that it WORKS just like any other contact cement on leather.

[TwinOaks]

What the heckle, I'll add my $.02 as well.

Regardless of which glue/cement is used-whether it's Master's, Barge, Elmer's, Titebond, or something starch based and made out of over cooked rice- what is the point of the cement?

I was under the impression that when bonding two pieces of leather, it wasn't 'to hold it until you could stitch it', rather the stitching worked to enforce the areas under the most stress and the glue held it all together. I was also under the impression that when bonding hides, it isn't supposed to be temporary. It shouldn't be "o.k." for the leather to work loose and start squeaking- not even on a long break in period. The squeaking leather means that the leather isn't bonded and is rubbing against the other leather, weakening both.

Now I've read some articles in the saddler's section that refer to pieces being glued to a saddle. The original intent was to go back and stitch it later. Reality was that the stitching never happened, and the pieces stayed put just fine, and this was a working saddle. That's what I think of as 'bonded'.

For this thread: Lobo, thanks for the suggestion of an alternative to "leather glue". Beaverslayer also had some suggestions on the same lines and I'll let the folks use the search function to find it. Also, lighten up and go easy on the caffeinne. Just because a member asks if you'd considered X, or thought of Z, or anything else.....it most likely isn't a personal attack.

Its been nice to see all the different views expressed here, and BIG THANK YOU to Denster for doing the test pieces and posting your results. Me, I can't drink anymore so I'll keep using something with high VOCs.

P.S. I glue then stitch my holsters, then apply conditioner(s), and if needed a top coat. Yeah, coloring gets in there too sometimes. I haven't had a squeaking holster yet. Granted I've only made about 12, and it includes the one I carry on me. Since at least one aspiring novice holster maker is able to make non-squeaking holsters- by hand, and with a whole year's experience- you might to re-think some of your statements like "all new leather items squeak, at least until they break in". Perhaps there is something to be learned in your 38th year of experience.

[Denster]

Twin Oaks: You're welcome, thank you for the kind words. You made some good points regarding attitudes. It is much more useful to express ideas and if someone has a different experience for them to state that also. It is not useful to just dismiss the idea without stating the specifice reason and being product specific. ie: not comparing apples to oranges. If you have done tests with a specific product in a specific application and it failed then state how it was done and how it failed.

As to the dreaded squeaking holster. There seems to be more than one thought on the matter and why and if it happens. I would be very interested to hear from someone that has actually experienced it where it was not a part of breaking in and went away quickly. For myself I have experienced squeaking leather but never a holster. My experience as a retired cop, like Lobo, relates to belts not holsters. Every three to five years we would have to purchase a new Sam Brown belt because that is what the department required. For the first several days the squad room sounded like my joints during a weather change:) After this period the belts learned to behave themselves and adapted. This may have been what Lobo's experience was and what he was relating.

K-Man brought up an interesting point about TightbondIII I'll be interested to hear what his findings are. The tightbond series are darn near wonder glues as far as woodworking and also seem to have an affinity for leather. My second business is in traditional archery. I've seen guys use TBIII to bond sinew and rawhide to the backs of self wood bows with good sucess. Now if you want to talk about a stressful application that is it. The traditional glue for this is liquid hide glue which while hugely strong is very succeptable to heat and moisture and the TB is not.

As an aside. Does anyone have any thought on the use of superglue in leather working?

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Superglue in leather working:

When you are building and exotic rig shark, elephant, etc. doesn't sand down at the same rate cow or horsehide does, which makes it difficult to get an even edge. When that happens, I saturate the edge with Superglue and let it harden before sanding it even. Be careful with this, as 1) it can make a real mess of your leatherwork if you don't pay close attention where the glue is going, 2) it can cause some discoloration or white edges, and 3) when it is setting the Superglue can get super hot!

Squeaking:

Most typically, holster squeaking can be solved by using baby powder on the back or the holster. and a little candle wax in the belt slots (these are the two most likely places where the leather from the holster will rub against leather from the belt, which is the most common cause for holster squeaking).

Occasionally a design in and of itself will cause squeaking because of the way it is made and the source can be very difficult to track down. This can usually be solved with a light dusting of baby powder, but it must be applied then wiped free, or there is a very remote possibility of locking a pistol up solid (don't believe me? try covering the slide of your favorite pistol with baby powder and see how many shots you can fire before your slide locks up so hard you can't work it free by hand).

The final source of squeaking is when the leather doesn't stay bonded or is never bonded in the first place, and squeaks whenever the holster flexes with your movement. This is a bad thing with a CCW holster, as it may be difficlut to explain why your hip squeaks like an old door hinge every time you move - hardly inconspicuous. ( NOTE: While I have never tried to use a surringe and glue one back together after construction as another member suggested, I doubt it would be easy, and it might not work since the glue wouldn't be allowed to get tacky and "set"... I imagine it would also be difficult to get the glue everywhere it needed to go. )

[Denster]

Boomstick. Those are some very interesting comments. The super glue on the edges is one for the notebook. Thank you. I had not considered baby powder on the belt slot. I believe it could lock up the slide on a pistol. By the way that wasn't by any chance a personal experience was it?

Regarding the squeaking of a holster due not the panels not being glued between the stitches. Have you ever personally observed a case like this? The reason I'm asking is that early on I only glued the edges of holsters to hold them for stitching, by hand in those days, and never experienced any squeak nor had any reported to me by guys I made them for. I am curious as to a first hand experience.

The reason I asked about superglue and it's potential was an application I have used it for numerous times, not related to holster making. That sparked an idea I've been toying with related to holsters. Some time ago I picked up an idea on TradGang a traditional archery site. A fellow used layers of different color veg-tan saturated with superglue to build up a back on the grip of a longbow and for the arrow rest. It looked really beautiful so I gave it a try. Worked great and all of my bows now have it. I learned that you can control the penetration of superglue on leather. Put down a thin coat first and let dry and the next coats will penetrate no further. Keep putting down wet coats and you can get it to penetrate nearly clear through 6oz. So why would you want to do this? Once you have the layers built up to suit and the leather saturated let the glue dry for a couple of hours shape with a file and sand from 80grit to 220 and polish with 0000 steel wool and you have what I would call leather under glass. Beautiful. I've also used it to make leather buttons for archery bracers.

So what does this have to do with holsters? The idea I was toying with was to use superglue on the flesh side of holster throat collars to stiffen them possibly on the flesh side of the thumb piece on a thumb break instead of a plastic or metal stiffener.

What do you guys think? Worth experimenting with or should I go back and sit down at the stitcher and put my brain in neutral?

[Shorts]

Denster, the idea is worth pursuing, not just on the thumb break but on the mouth reinforcement as well. I hope I'm not giving away your secrets here, but as I said, worth pursuing.

I've never used superglue on my leather. I found the hardening/crusting effect to be scary. From reading this thread sounds like SG can be used and finished clear.

Offhand, I watched an episode of How It's Made where the builder was making a wooden bow. It was impressive and sparked a few questions.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Shorts

[Denster]

Shorts. Bow making is as fun as holster making just not as profitable. I make Osage self bows and Bamboo backed Osage bows.

On the superglue with leather I should have mentioned it is important what superglue you use. In this case I found the best was the cheapest. I use the cheap stuff from Wal-Mart five black tubes for $1.99. It is super thin and penetrates well.

One other thing I forgot while working don't scratch any itches and keep some fingernail polish remover or acitone handy because you will eventually glue yourself to yourself:)

[TwinOaks]

I've seen super glue used as a finish before. A cue maker I know in n. Alabama would apply it while the cue was still on the lathe. It (usually) turned out a very nice and hard finish to the cue.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Denster, I have never personally run into the terminal leather squeaking problem, but was made aware of it on a forum post when someone couldn't get the squeaking to stop no matter what they tried. I spent all evening trying to find the thread, but I can't seem to recall where it was. Some of the best in the business commented on it, and I took their word for it. There are a lot of small nuances in holster making that might seem unnecessary to the construction of a holster, but that may mean a whole lot in the long run. I haven't been making holsters nearly as long as some, but I try to heed the advice of the makers who's work I admire the most and emulte their production processes to the best of my ability.

On the Super glue:

I'm not too sure how well it would work or not. I would be afraid that if it weakened in one point, it would act as a "hinge" and be predisposed to cracking in that spot after repeated bending. This is purely speculation on my part, as I have never tried superglue in the way you are suggesting. I would imagine that even if it did work well, it would get to be expensive consideringthe amount of product you would have to go through. I would just as soon use a piece of stainless steel to back the thumb strap and call it done, but I tend to stay with proven methods unless there is a clear and obvious advantage to switching. Basically, if you want to give it a try please let us know how it works!

Concerning the process you mentioned for bow making, I would love to see a step by step pictorial of that if you wouldn't mind sharing how you do that in more detail. It sounds really interesting, and I would love to see some pics of results you have achieved with it. I can't think of exactly where to apply it to holster making, but grips and such would be a possibility and it just plan sounds cool.

[Denster]

Boomstick: Thanks for the response on the squeaking holster situation. In any case whether it exists or not it's probably a good idea to go for a secure glue up.

I'm not real good at doing build alongs but here is a link where I got the original idea. This guy did a really good build along with detailed photos. http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?...ic;f=2;t=000066 As to expanding the idea to buttons all I did was punch circles in 1/8" reductions then hot glued them to a dowel and shaped on my belt sander soaked them with glue again and finished by hand.

Nothing wrong with staying with the tried and true methods. Certainly no one can fault your results. Regarding your comments on the the thumb break you are probably right. I think when I get some time to experiment I'll try it with the throat collar and see if it stiffens it enough I can drop from 8oz to 6oz. Make one up for myself and carry it around for a couple of months to see how it holds up If it works good I'll post it.

[UncleGeorge]

I know its an old post but just read it and had to tell my tale. 19 years ago there was a bad shooting at a Lubys Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas where a nut drove his truck through the window and shot I think 26 people just going around table to table. Less than a couple of months later I started carrying a little .22 Beretta in my hip pocket figuring I wasn't gonna be killed like those folks were in the cafeteria. I knew nothing about leather work. Got some scraps from Tandys and made my first wallet holster. Just basically folded over a piece of leather with three thicknesses of leather under the handle. It even had a little compartment that held 4 extra bullets. The raw undyed leather was all glued together with Elmer's Glue-All that I had in my little woodworking shop. Clamped it up just like any other wood project and let it dry overnight. No stitching of any kind. I carried that holster for 19 years until my recent purchase of a Ruger LCP that would not fit the holster. The seams on the holster never came apart. It was thoroughly dunked and soaked twice when I fell/stepped out of my boat on different occasions. I still use the yellow Titebond on my holsters before I stitch them. Don't know if the Elmer's Glue-All I originally used was water resistant but the Yellow Titebond is. Not suggesting that holsters be constructed with glue and no stitching, just wanted to tell a little story about my experience with Elmer's Glue-All.

[K-Man]

Seeing UG's post here reminded me that I needed to give an update on my use of Titebond III glue and it's application on leather. It now being ~4 months since my assembly of a pocket holster for a Colt Government .380, I took the holster and was able to easily (for me) pull the holster apart where it had been glued together. The glued area was approximately 1" wide by 2.5" high. This further testing, beyond what my previous experiences had been with wood glues on leather, shows me that my earlier comments are substantiated. YMMV.