vinegroon??

[Tkleather1]

I keep hearing about this vinegaroon but I still dont totally get what the heck it is. If someone could take the time to go through this process of making and using this product I would greatly appreciate it. Why would you use this over black dye? what is the baking soda for ?

Please help as I dont get at all what this is for.

[tashabear]

Take something rusty. Put it in vinegar (white, cider, doesn't matter as long as it's not balsamic). Let it steep for several days.

Take a piece of undyed vegetable tan leather. Put it in the rust & vinegar mix. Watch in amazement as your leather turns black before your eyes. This is a result of the acids in the mix reacting with the tannins in the leather.

The acid needs to be neutralized to stop the reaction, and the easiest way to do that is in a baking soda solution, though some folks say rinsing in water will do the trick. After your piece is dry, you can oil it to deepen the color.

Does that help?

[Tkleather1]

that helps but I dont get why not jsut use dye?

and does it stink when you are done?

[TwinOaks]

Fresh vinegaroon does have a certain .....presence. At least until it dries thoroughly. My brew doesn't smell like much at all after if fully dries, but it's old.

You could use it in place of dye for a couple of reasons:

It's a chemical reaction in the leather. The leather is black, not colored black. Cutting it will yield more black leather.

The blackness of it doesn't rub off, and requires no buffing to remove excess particles.

It doesn't show scratches as badly.

Adding a touch of oil or conditioner restores the color.

When playing with W&C scraps, you can get some awesome blues instead of black.

[tashabear]

  Tkleather1 said:

that helps but I dont get why not jsut use dye?

and does it stink when you are done?

The smell wears off, plus the neutralizing bath helps a lot.

As for why not use dye... I can make a gallon of vinegaroon for a couple of bucks. A gallon of dye costs around $50.

I can reasonably justify its use in historical reenactment.

And if cats or kids get into it, it's unlikely to kill them, nor will it stain if I spill it on the vinyl floor in the kitchen.

Edited March 24, 2009 by tashabear

[Bree]

Google the word "mordant". It is a substance that acts as a helper in a chemical reaction that creates a dye or stain.

Tannic acid in the leather as a result of the tanning process and ferric acetate formed when ferrous metal is placed into the weak acid solution of vinegar can both act as "mordants". In this case, if I am not mistaken, it is the tannic acid acting as a mordant for the ferric component of the ferric acetate that gives the leather its deep black color. It helps set insoluable iron into the fibers of the leather and thereby darkens it in a way that will not rub off since it is bonded very strongly within the leather to the leather fibers themselves.

You put steel wool or old nails or other ferrous metal into some vinegar and let it "brew". It forms ferric acetate. When you put leather into a solution of vinegaroon (ferric acetate), the tannic acid in the leather helps trigger the chemical reaction and sets the dye which is basically iron. Bottom line...the two chemicals interact in the leather and voila... black throughout the leather!!

I think that's how it works. The chemists can maybe explain it more precisely.

[Denster]

Here is what works for me. Your mileage may vary.

Making the vinegaroon.

Get one gallon of the cheap Wal-Mart vinegar. I like it because it is cheap and has a pop off cap in case I forget to bleed off the gases.

5 pads of OOOO steel wool. Any steel wool will work the finer stuff just dissolves quicker.

Degrease the steel wool. I use simple green full strength and then rinse the wool. Forget about rust it doesn't add anything to the mix. Tear the wool into strips and stuff it in the vinegar cap and put away for three or four weeks untill the wool is all dissolved then strain through a coffee filter or whatever into another jug. Your "roon" is now ready for use. Actually you can use it after a week or two but it works better after a month.

To use dip your leather into the roon for thirty seconds or so and set aside for ten or fifteen minutes. The baking soda rinse may or may not be necessasary. I use this for holsters so I do it and it does get rid of most of the smell. Let dry and use as normal. The color will vary with the leather and the amount of tannins in it. The reaction is between the ferric acetate and the tannins. You will have from a medium blue to a deep navy. When the finished product is oiled with neetsfoot it will go jet black.

You can also wipe the roon onto leather with the same effect just not as deep penetration. I dip because I color pee assembly and want the color all the way through so I don't have to re-do when I edge or cut grooves.

Why use instead of dye. Cheaper, easier, more even, will not transfere to clothing, did I mention cheap.

That's all there is to it. Hope this helps.

[TwinOaks]

Don't forget that it's cheap Denster.

If you have a piece of leather that just doesn't wanna turn black, you can give it some extra tannins with black tea. Nope, I don't know what'd happen if you dropped tea leaves in the brew. I haven't tried it.........................................yet.

[Denster]

Twin Oaks. Thanks for mentioning that about adding tannins with the tea. That is sometimes necessary. As to adding tea leaves to the roon. I think I'll let you do that experiment. Give it a whirl take a few sips and report back to us:)

[Tkleather1]

Wow that was very informative but I do have one more question. Could you use a wool dauber to "roon" just the edge of a peice or will it seem too far into the leather?

Sorry for the silly questions I have never tried any of this "witches brew"

[Denster]

I suppose you could you'd just have to be carefull how you applied it.

[Bree]

Be careful with your brew. If you drip some on oak furniture for example what do you think will happen?? Black Oak furntiture!!

Here is an MSDS for the main ingredient of vinegaroon

http://www.alfa.com/content/msds/USA/31140.pdf

Handle it properly for your own safety.

Here is a fascinating link for you dyeaholics...

http://www.knaw.nl/ECPA/ink/index.html

[Xothique]

I'm fascinated by this topic as it would seem to solve the eternal problem of light-fast dye. So my question is - can you treat the leather this way and then wet-mould it once it's changed colour?

[SOSHorses]

I have made a batch of "roon" and have been using it with good results. However I do not get the black color until it is oiled. Before the oil I get the a very deep shade of royal blue (slight purple cast), so I have not been using the baking soda rinse because I am never sure if it will still turn black when it is oiled.

Anyone have any input on this? I will try to get some photos of some stuff later for comparison.

Has anyone tried the other mordants like tin, alum?

Edited July 9, 2009 by SOSHorses

[Bree]

  SOSHorses said:

I have made a batch of "roon" and have been using it with good results. However I do not get the black color until it is oiled. Before the oil I get the a very deep shade of royal blue (slight purple cast), so I have not been using the baking soda rinse because I am never sure if it will still turn black when it is oiled.

Anyone have any input on this? I will try to get some photos of some stuff later for comparison.

Has anyone tried the other mordants like tin, alum?

I wanted to make a new holster for my Keltec P3AT. I wanted a wider Nemesis style to prevent the gun from falling over sideways in my jeans pocket. So I decided to vinegaroon it.

I took some bullhide and gave it a 7 minute soak in some Quebracho Bark tea (1 tablespoon bark to a pot of boiling water then let cool) and then let it set in my somewhat filtered vinegaroon brew for a couple of hours. I say somewhat filtered since there was still a lot of goop in there. I washed the bullhide and let it set in some sodium bicarbonate solution for a few mins to neutralize the acid. I let it dry and then cased it to do some stamping.

Right now it is black as a coal yard at midnight with no finsh whatsoever. Once I get the edges sanded and get the sewing done, I will post some final product PIX. Here some PIX of the ebonization of this piece of leather.

Raw bullhide

After the Quebracho soak

Soaking in the neutralizer

Wet neutralized leather

Flesh side drying

Stamped but still cased

Close up of the stamped leather

The stamped PIX are overly lit up because it is very hard to photograph the darn thing it is so black!

[MADMAX22]

Looks great,

Did you play with the vinegaroon with and without the bark mixture to see what your results would be? Just wondering.

[Bree]

  MADMAX22 said:

Looks great,

Did you play with the vinegaroon with and without the bark mixture to see what your results would be? Just wondering.

I didn't test the bullhide because I don't have a lot of scrap to test it on. I tried it on some other veg-tan without the bark tan and most of the time it was black or that deep grey with bluish cast that blackens with finishing. I didn't want to have to cut another holster pattern so I just dunked it in the bark tan tea. We'll see how the depth is when I sand the edges as I will have to sand off a good bit on part of the piece as the stamping splayed out the leather somewhat. I will probably do that this weekend.

[ChuckBurrows]

  Quote

have not been using the baking soda rinse because I am never sure if it will still turn black when it is oiled.

Anyone have any input on this? I will try to get some photos of some stuff later for comparison.

The baking soda rinse is an aid to turning it black - The "neutralizing" aspect is more for any residual odor than it is for acid reduction. If it is not black enough even after doing the baking soda dip (a quick one minute dip is all that is really needed - soak too long and you can get alkali burn which will damage the leather - ignore the bubbles) just repeat the entire procedure, but do it before the oil although I have successfully done it after oiling, but IMO it's better before since it's one less thing to go wrong, it's the reason I've never depended solely on the oil - for me the oil is to rejuvenate the leather not to turn it black, albeit that's a nice addition......

  Quote

Has anyone tried the other mordants like tin, alum?

AGAIN........vinegaroon aka vinegar black is a technically a chemical reagent - it is NOT a true dye so NO MORDANTS are necessary - it is the reaction with the tannins in the leather that turns the leather black - the plus side is unlike true dyes there should be no ruboff and color fastness is good when done right.

For instance Bree increased the tannin content with the bark pre-bath which increases the chemical reaction, thus you get a "better" initial black. You can also increase the reaction by adding tannins after the vinegar - it doesn't matter when it's applied, although in either case, before or after, the tannins and the vinegar black should be applied within a short while of each other.

If you have a piece that did not turn a good black to begin with apply more tannins - I've used a plain ole STRONG black tea when needed - it's cheap and is available at your local super market - apply the tannins "tea", let it air dry for a moment the leather to rid itself of excess surface moisture, and then reapply the vinegar black or vice versa......

  Quote

can you treat the leather this way and then wet-mould it once it's changed colour?

As Bree showed - yes you can - I usually dye after, but have cased the leather with the vinegar black and then tooled - just make sure to clean you tools afterwards.......

[SOSHorses]

so what is the baking soda to water ratio for the after bath?

[ChuckBurrows]

  SOSHorses said:

so what is the baking soda to water ratio for the after bath?

I never measure but 2-3 tablespoons to a quart of warm water - use warm water so it disolves.

[Bree]

  ChuckBurrows said:

I never measure but 2-3 tablespoons to a quart of warm water - use warm water so it disolves.

I probably didn't even use that much. I put in 1 tablespoon for maybe a quart of water... just enough to fill a rectangular Pyrex pie pan... probably a quart of H20. Chuck's formula is probably equally good because I let mine sit for a longer time than he does with his mix.

Like Chuck, I used warm water to dissolve the baking soda and then let it cool.

You can easily forget what you are doing and plop your leather into hot or even boiling water doing these operations. That would be a bad mistake. So be very careful to always have your fluids at the temperature you want them... and know why you want them at that temperature.

It's kinda fun... like fooling around in chem lab!! LOL!

[ps0303]

So when you go to make this, do you just dump some of it out and then stuff in the steel wool? Other than the gases, does it expand in volume? Any obnoxious fumes come from it while it's brewing?

[Bree]

  ps0303 said:

So when you go to make this, do you just dump some of it out and then stuff in the steel wool? Other than the gases, does it expand in volume? Any obnoxious fumes come from it while it's brewing?

It smells vinegary but not horrible. It is not a huge reaction. Vinegar is very weak. There will be some little bubbles but it isn't a big deal. I use plastic coffee cans and they work fine. The lid would pop before anything bad happened. Just put some ferrous substance in with the vinegar and let her brew. Very simple.

Just remember this is a chemical agent... ferric acetate. Treat it with respect.

[Skald]

Is it possible to successfully "paint" with this vinegroon mixture? Or is it more of a "soak to dye" method? I have had some problems to get things for hard use keep it's dye over time. Never tried vinegroon at all, and I wonder if I can apply it on details like with ordinary dye?

[ChuckBurrows]

  On 12/2/2010 at 6:12 PM, Skald said:

Is it possible to successfully "paint" with this vinegroon mixture? Or is it more of a "soak to dye" method? I have had some problems to get things for hard use keep it's dye over time. Never tried vinegroon at all, and I wonder if I can apply it on details like with ordinary dye?

Try it - you should be able to paint it on (I often just use a foam brush to paint the whole item rather than dipping). The only problem I can for see is it spreading out over to areas you don't want stained - but then agin I often use it to add "stains" to brown goods and just splatter it on in places and there is usually little spread.

Edited December 3, 2010 by ChuckBurrows