moccasin hell!

[Pip]

ok, so i am a little of dramatic but following a pattern fr my first pair of moccasins, I am eityher completely stupid or the *&$^%& pattern is missing a step.

I hav e so far, cut out pattern and measured as per instructions stitched on the hard sole a la apache moccasins, with succes and ~I am pleased with stitching..... triumph... yes but short lived..

I have come to fit the tongue and top the pattern does not specify length of top and tongue, says it should be between 6 and 9cm wide etc etc across its widest point and it should be symetrical I have cut four so far and the end product is only fit to bin... No mention of glue, just 9 sets of 3 holes stitch on front through 1st and 3rd in each set pull tight which produces the shape of the toes.... lovely

Then the central holes in the sets of three are supposed to be laced overstitch to the top/tongue but then says over stitch (but not where from) and seems to suggest starting at the toes and working back to the tongue, the overstitch turns to saddle stitch for the last bit, I only have one thread!!

the whole thing looks like, i made it blindfolded everytime i put it together, its neither balanced nor straight with big gaping holes everwhere. grrrrrr!

to make matters worse I took it apart to try again and then thought, i should have taken a photo first......d'oh

I am just about ready to bin the whole project, and stick to something less stressful, does anyone have a sane pattern for a pair of Apache moccasin that says about the top/tongue, or can you set me straight. I am calling it a day, and will look for your wisdoms after sleep, Please any help any comments welcome.... within reason.

(I have read the pattern twelve times.... so far. I must be missing something, but wot, I just don't know.)

[ferret]

Dunno if this will be of any help but it's worth a look

[Pip]

thanks for your help ferret, It looks like a great pattern idea but not really wot i need for this one thanks anyways.

Happy birthday bud...

Edited March 7, 2008 by Pip

[Oscar B]

http://jumaka.com/moccasins/MakingMoccasin...nstructions.htm

http://www.btinternet.com/~kingsmerecrafts/Contents.html

I hope one of these helps.

[TracyMoss]

I feel your frustration. I am attempting a pair of moccaisons with my chap scrap. Driving me nuts.

[Pip]

thanks for your help guys, it really is driving me nuts, I can't seem to get the tongue to balance /sit straight hmm,Oscarb the second website is the pattern that I'm following, bt reworded a little I am now on tongue number 8, solved the size problem though, thanks. My partner has told me to put it in a bag and come back to it when I am less frustrated.... they are for her for easter, though she doesn't know it yet. oh well.

[DG Leather]

Maybe a little late but I found this with instructions fo rthe tongue on it.

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/14813/t/Moccasins-101-How-to-make-one-piece-moccasins.html

[whinewine]

I feel your frustration. I am attempting a pair of moccaisons with my chap scrap. Driving me nuts.

thanks for your help guys, it really is driving me nuts, I can't seem to get the tongue to balance /sit straight hmm,Oscarb the second website is the pattern that I'm following, bt reworded a little I am now on tongue number 8, solved the size problem though, thanks. My partner has told me to put it in a bag and come back to it when I am less frustrated.... they are for her for easter, though she doesn't know it yet. oh well.

I know what you're going through. I have a pair of Tandy's Plainsman Boot Pattern mocs that I started about 4 years ago & I've not been able to fit the bottoms to the tops successfully yet. I thought it was just me. One of these days I'll try again, now that I know others have the same problem...

[wildrose]

Whinewine, I've done that same kit, and I'd have to say it's alot harder than it looks. I finally got a pair together, only to find they never stay up, but are constantly falling around my ankles.

[Jim]

One thing I can tell you about some of the patterns out there is they were made up by folks looking to make a fast buck rather than a good fitting pair of mocs. I bought Tandy's Apache Boot patterns back in 91 and after looking them over I said to myself, "Self, there ain't nobody got a foot that long and skinny." So, after some modifications I came up with a decent pair of boots. They got better with more modifications.

The patterns are generic and not made to fit the different shaped feet that are walking around out there. If you stick with the pattern as is, you usually wind up with more toe space than your foot will fill or an overly tight fit due to a wider foot. . . . with extra toe space.

As for the length of the boot tops; they don't account for different leg lengths which causes the boot top to fall down around the ankle. Therefore, one must measure and modify the pattern to get the boot top to fit over the calf.

So, it will take a little time but you can figure what changes are needed by what goes wrong as the moc goes together. Sometimes all you need to do is start sewing the vamp to the sole at one hole further up or further back to get the thing to line up properly when finished. This is due to the fact that not all feet are created equally. I learned this from making countless pairs of mocs and boots.

My 2 cents

[Apache Moccasins]

ok, so i am a little of dramatic but following a pattern fr my first pair of moccasins, I am eityher completely stupid or the *&$^%& pattern is missing a step.

I hav e so far, cut out pattern and measured as per instructions stitched on the hard sole a la apache moccasins, with succes and ~I am pleased with stitching..... triumph... yes but short lived..

I have come to fit the tongue and top the pattern does not specify length of top and tongue, says it should be between 6 and 9cm wide etc etc across its widest point and it should be symetrical I have cut four so far and the end product is only fit to bin... No mention of glue, just 9 sets of 3 holes stitch on front through 1st and 3rd in each set pull tight which produces the shape of the toes.... lovely

Then the central holes in the sets of three are supposed to be laced overstitch to the top/tongue but then says over stitch (but not where from) and seems to suggest starting at the toes and working back to the tongue, the overstitch turns to saddle stitch for the last bit, I only have one thread!!

the whole thing looks like, i made it blindfolded everytime i put it together, its neither balanced nor straight with big gaping holes everwhere. grrrrrr!

to make matters worse I took it apart to try again and then thought, i should have taken a photo first......d'oh

I am just about ready to bin the whole project, and stick to something less stressful, does anyone have a sane pattern for a pair of Apache moccasin that says about the top/tongue, or can you set me straight. I am calling it a day, and will look for your wisdoms after sleep, Please any help any comments welcome.... within reason.

(I have read the pattern twelve times.... so far. I must be missing something, but wot, I just don't know.)

[Apache Moccasins]

I dont know which Pattern your using , but Traditional Western Apache Moccasins , dont have a Tongue Piece .. the Top of the Foot ' and all the way up around the leg ' is one piece of leather .. not a two piece ' only the foot ' is separate .

I have had some of these made by an Apache man in Arizona , the soles are hardsole white Latigo , which is soaked ' to make the sewing easier .. the soles are not pre-punched with an awl . Im wondering if your using that Moccasin Pattern Book by mr White .. showing how to make various different tribal styles. I got that book too ' and there isnt half enough information given. I found it completely useless to be honest. Apache Moccasins seem to be made starting by sewing up along the leg for the first step from top to bottom .. with a bit extra elkskin left attached to go across the top of the foot later. Theg leg is made thigh hi ' and folded down a few times to about the calves , with the leg seam on th inside of the leg.

Im guessing here .. but i think ' that to get the shape / part for across the top of the foot , the extra elk left over for across the foot .. is flipped over flat on a table .. then the cutout ' Latigo sole is inserted into the heel area .. and then you draw around the shape of the foot ' possible adding a little at the side to alllow for the toes / area. Because the top of the arch of the foot ' is incorporated in the bottom of the leg where the foot joins .. so i dont think there is any need to worry about allowing for the top of the arch of the foot. Like i said im just guessing .. and i must try it myself first . I know the Apache guy said that all the measurements needed are got from the foot tracing . He also said that he gets sand from the river ' to put into the moccasin so that the sole ' dries in the correct shape , probly fills a bag with sand inside the moccasin , shapes it .. and is then left to dry in shape.

there is 2 different styles of Western Apache Moccasins .. The Chiricahua , White Mtn , San Carlos with the Circular Toe Guard . And the other style Moccasin which hasnt got the toe guard ' but has a slight upturned point around the big toe ' area. Both are made with the One Piece ' Long Thigh High Leg. And mostly worn folded down to the calves these days.

I also think Navajo and Apache Moccasins are made / constructed similar .. in regards to how the soles are sewn to the uppers. Im attaching , a link how to make the Navajo Moccasins .. as it gives drawings and directions how to make the foot and top of the foot pattern .. Basically '' you draw around ur foot on a piece of paper , then you again draw aaround this tracing about 1 inch , { but i dont think apache moccasin soles are that wide ' as they dont come up that high around the foot at the sides. } but then you use this new foot pattern , and draw around it again exactly the same .. to get the pattern for across the toes .. so it fits correctly there. I hope im making sense .. take a look at the link anyway , and scroll down to see the directions and the drawings , start by looking at the bottom sketch of the foot ' thats step one .. the sketches were done in wrong order , so start at the bottom one and follow the steps upwards

I think Apache Moccasin Soles are sewn on similar ' to the Navajo

http://www.4directions.org/resources/1003348958-81EDF7F0.1/moccasin.html

Ive added some Pics I think you will find helpfull on how the soles are sewn to the upper. Also I was told by an Apache Man who makes them , that it is Latigo . He also said that he gets sand from the river so that they dry in the correct shape. So whether he puts a plastic bag filled with sand from the river into the wet damp sole of the moccasin , then shapes it into the correct shape n lets it to dry in the sun, i dont know. But i have used latigo ' and it dries into whatever shape you want when it dries.

It is very difficult to get Latigo which is almost 1/4 '' inch thick. The craft stores cant get it anywhere .. and i have never tried buy Latigo as a hide . So dont know if that thicker '' than the pieces of Latigo they sell as moccasin soles I dont know. Hope the pics will help you to sew on the Soles anyway

Also you will need to remember '' as in the pics .. The upper is sewn to the sole ' with the right side out . Each stitch is pushed through the Latigo sole and you pul '' the upper across the sole ' and keep it quite taught ' firm making sure you tuck in the edge of the upper as you go along. what i would do is make the stitch on the upper a small tiny stitch so it wont be felt on the inside. Then go straight back down again to coincide the upper stitch with the sole , push it through again ,, and so on. Basically as in the pics your just folding the sole over your finger / hand pushing the needle through and picking up the upper as you go along. Thats my idea anyway. have a practise on some scrap latigo and some buckskin and you will see how easy it is , and dont forget to soak ' the Latigo before you start sewing .. it makes the sewing go easier.

Good Luck !

Edited July 27, 2012 by Apache Moccasins

[Apache Moccasins]

I dont know which Pattern your using , but Traditional Western Apache Moccasins , dont have a Tongue Piece .. the Top of the Foot ' and all the way up around the leg ' is one piece of leather .. not a two piece ' only the foot ' is separate .

I have had some of these made by an Apache man in Arizona , the soles are hardsole white Latigo , which is soaked ' to make the sewing easier .. the soles are not pre-punched with an awl . Im wondering if your using that Moccasin Pattern Book by mr White .. showing how to make various different tribal styles. I got that book too ' and there isnt half enough information given. I found it completely useless to be honest. Apache Moccasins seem to be made starting by sewing up along the leg for the first step from top to bottom .. with a bit extra elkskin left attached to go across the top of the foot later. Theg leg is made thigh hi ' and folded down a few times to about the calves , with the leg seam on th inside of the leg.

Im guessing here .. but i think ' that to get the shape / part for across the top of the foot , the extra elk left over for across the foot .. is flipped over flat on a table .. then the cutout ' Latigo sole is inserted into the heel area .. and then you draw around the shape of the foot ' possible adding a little at the side to alllow for the toes / area. Because the top of the arch of the foot ' is incorporated in the bottom of the leg where the foot joins .. so i dont think there is any need to worry about allowing for the top of the arch of the foot. Like i said im just guessing .. and i must try it myself first . I know the Apache guy said that all the measurements needed are got from the foot tracing . He also said that he gets sand from the river ' to put into the moccasin so that the sole ' dries in the correct shape , probly fills a bag with sand inside the moccasin , shapes it .. and is then left to dry in shape.

there is 2 different styles of Western Apache Moccasins .. The Chiricahua , White Mtn , San Carlos with the Circular Toe Guard . And the other style Moccasin which hasnt got the toe guard ' but has a slight upturned point around the big toe ' area. Both are made with the One Piece ' Long Thigh High Leg. And mostly worn folded down to the calves these days.

I also think Navajo and Apache Moccasins are made / constructed similar .. in regards to how the soles are sewn to the uppers. Im attaching , a link how to make the Navajo Moccasins .. as it gives drawings and directions how to make the foot and top of the foot pattern .. Basically '' you draw around ur foot on a piece of paper , then you again draw aaround this tracing about 1 inch , { but i dont think apache moccasin soles are that wide ' as they dont come up that high around the foot at the sides. } but then you use this new foot pattern , and draw around it again exactly the same .. to get the pattern for across the toes .. so it fits correctly there. I hope im making sense .. take a look at the link anyway , and scroll down to see the directions and the drawings , start by looking at the bottom sketch of the foot ' thats step one .. the sketches were done in wrong order , so start at the bottom one and follow the steps upwards

I think Apache Moccasin Soles are sewn on similar ' to the Navajo

http://www.4directio...1/moccasin.html

Ive added some Pics I think you will find helpfull on how the soles are sewn to the upper. Also I was told by an Apache Man who makes them , that it is Latigo . He also said that he gets sand from the river so that they dry in the correct shape. So whether he puts a plastic bag filled with sand from the river into the wet damp sole of the moccasin , then shapes it into the correct shape n lets it to dry in the sun, i dont know. But i have used latigo ' and it dries into whatever shape you want when it dries.

It is very difficult to get Latigo which is almost 1/4 '' inch thick. The craft stores cant get it anywhere .. and i have never tried buy Latigo as a hide . So dont know if that thicker '' than the pieces of Latigo they sell as moccasin soles I dont know. Hope the pics will help you to sew on the Soles anyway

Also you will need to remember '' as in the pics .. The upper is sewn to the sole ' with the right side out . Each stitch is pushed through the Latigo sole and you pul '' the upper across the sole ' and keep it quite taught ' firm making sure you tuck in the edge of the upper as you go along. what i would do is make the stitch on the upper a small tiny stitch so it wont be felt on the inside. Then go straight back down again to coincide the upper stitch with the sole , push it through again ,, and so on. Basically as in the pics your just folding the sole over your finger / hand pushing the needle through and picking up the upper as you go along. Thats my idea anyway. have a practise on some scrap latigo and some buckskin and you will see how easy it is , and dont forget to soak ' the Latigo before you start sewing .. it makes the sewing go easier.

Good Luck !

Edited July 27, 2012 by Apache Moccasins

[Sylvia]

LOL Necro-bumping are we, Apache?

Nice mocs though.

[Apache Moccasins]

LOL Necro-bumping are we, Apache?

Nice mocs though.

Lol ''' No honestly Sylvia .. I just put the Pics of the Apache Mox ' so people could see how both styles look ! .. from the Point Toe Style .. to the Circular Toe Guard Style. Just to show the difference between the two and also to show that both style are a One Piece Upper ..

Not a 2 Piece Upper as is suggested ' in Mr Whites Craft Manual Of North American Moccasins.

Im just trying to help people ' who like myself ' would like to know .

[Apache Moccasins]

LOL Necro-bumping are we, Apache?

Nice mocs though.

PS .. Never even heard of ' Necro-bumping ' here in UK ' .. wots it mean. Do you mean ' Sales Pitching ' ? .. Definately' not Sylvia Im just someone who has been interested in the Apache People ' since i was a child. And would dearly love to learn the correct way to make my own Apache Moccasins.

[Sylvia]

PS .. Never even heard of ' Necro-bumping ' here in UK ' .. wots it mean. Do you mean ' Sales Pitching ' ? .. Definately' not Sylvia Im just someone who has been interested in the Apache People ' since i was a child. And would dearly love to learn the correct way to make my own Apache Moccasins.

Heh... no. Necro (dead) bump ( in the case of forums.... to move up) or in this case to "revive a long dead thread"

Some native people try to keep their native crafts close to their hearts and won't share them with the world. But check out Youtube for some video tutorials. I know there is an Oregon native woman who teaches how to make a type of Moc. It might help you some.

[Apache Moccasins]

Heh... no. Necro (dead) bump ( in the case of forums.... to move up) or in this case to "revive a long dead thread"

Some native people try to keep their native crafts close to their hearts and won't share them with the world. But check out Youtube for some video tutorials. I know there is an Oregon native woman who teaches how to make a type of Moc. It might help you some.

Oh right Lol '' Oh well , it might help someone in the future searchin the net haha Yes ! '' your quite right ' about some Native People not wanting to share their crafts with the world. I have tried a few different Apaches now ' to see if they can help me ? ... The guy at San Carlos Cultural Center said '' he was sorry ' but he could not teach none tribal members to make moccasins, he also said '' that i might make a pattern n publish it , and that there is a ' Rights / Patent Act '' on how they are made ... haha , Another said '' there is a great deal of Praying involved and he was concerned about having bad luck ! .. Basically '' NONE ' of the Apaches ive asked for help on this seem to want to help ' and im starting to think its some kind of ' BIG APACHE SECRET '''' ? How incredibly mean ? .... Well when ive figured them out ' maybe i ought to start making a few pairs for people ? hahaha I just cant believe how ' Mean ' that really is , and actually quite childish too. If we were to think that way , then maybe they should give back all their computers , tvs , dvd players .. all electrical stuff ' and they can go back to living in wickiups again. So there ... Whats good for the Goose ' is good for the Gander. Lol '''

[Apache Moccasins]

Heh... no. Necro (dead) bump ( in the case of forums.... to move up) or in this case to "revive a long dead thread"

Some native people try to keep their native crafts close to their hearts and won't share them with the world. But check out Youtube for some video tutorials. I know there is an Oregon native woman who teaches how to make a type of Moc. It might help you some.

Can i just ask Sylvia ? .. im gettin the impression you're Native American ? ... which Tribal Nation ' are you ? Im adding a pic of a pair of High Tops i made for a friend. They are plains Hi Top Moccasins , except i beaded them in the Apache way. I started making Moccasins about 6-7 yrs ago. I learned how to make moccasins from a dvd i bought ' How To Make Moccasins ... and also learned Beading from a Dvd too.

Hope you have a lovely day ' Sylvia .. and a fantastic ''' weekend.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Apache Moccasins

[Sylvia]

My grand mother was http://www.muscogeenation-nsn.gov/ One of the 5 "civilized tribes,"of the southeastern United States. However, I am not affiliated with the tribe and consider myself 'white" In fact, I didn't even know that I was part Muscogee (Creek) until I was well into my late 20s and grandmother was about 87 years old. You see for her generation (she was born in the 1890s) it was not fashionable to be Native American or a half breed. So she kept her heritage to herself. I am sure it was to protect my father and uncle from discrimination. It's a shame really.

Your hightops are lovely. We don't see a lot of beading on this forum. But I see quite a bit of beaders on paleoworld. I'll send you the link in a private forum message. I've been tempted by a more European style of moccasin boot and have even cast my foot and leg to make the pattern, but I have not cut and made them yet.

http://www.sodhoppers.com/index.html

You have a great day and week end too.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Sylvia

[ChuckBurrows]

Will Ghormley's apache moccasin pattern is available here http://www.willghormley-maker.com/ApacheBootPattern.html and is free to down load - he shows one technique for sewing the soles on (the non turn shoe method), but the turn show style of attachment is also recorded via existing artifacts - you can see several here http://anthro.amnh.org/north on the AMNH site and look at the pics (use the Zoom)- several are definitely turn shoe style soles - as with most NA Indian items there is no single one way of things done even amongst the same tribal members, even the old timers. The pictures and variations are consistent with the originals I have also examined first hand.

for search terms use: moccasin

for culture use: Apache, Hopi, etc. to narrow things down

Apache Moccasin - very nice crafting and bead work on the plains high tops....

FWIW - as for the Apaches and others keeping things close to their vest so to speak re: crafting methods - most Indian crafters I know first hand are usually very open and helpful, but others are not so for many reasons, one being that so many have for years been down trodden - abused and used by others for their own personal gain and to the detriment of the Indians.

While I basically agree with you about "keeping secrets" I also understand why many are shy about it or consider it at times culture vulturalism - they have had so much stolen from them over the years and while things like glass embroidery bead work were developed with the aid of Euro goods it's a very emotional issue for many and therefore using logic as an argument won't make any difference - but generally it is not being mean - just put yourself in their position. Generally when you get to know the folks in person rather than via mail, etc. it makes a difference (although there are those few who just won't like it no matter what - and not just "whites" - if you're not a member of the tribe or if it is seen as a "treat" to their ability to make money, but getting to know tribal folks is tough to do at times even when you live close like I do.

One resource that should be a big help for you AM is the Plains Indian Seminar two group on Yahoo - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PlainsIndianSeminartwo/?yguid=174734538

It is the home for many of the finest Indian crafters, both white and Indian, and although it's mainly Plains crafting centered, I have no doubt that at least some have first hand knowledge on construction and technique of APache gear.