Building bights

[rawhide1]

Howdy all

I was wondering if anybody else ever has trouble with the foundation getting crowded on one side when adding bights. It seems I've always had this happen but I just straighten it out before my interweaves. But on this knot it seems really bad I tried to move strings around as I added a bight. But after I made it a eight bight it really got crowded on one side. So is there any thing I can do different or does anyone have any tricks. Or I'm I stuck on trying to move this mess around and always having this problem. Any and all help appreciated.

Thanks, Mike

Sorry if the pics are big!

[HorsehairBraider]

Sure, I've had this happen too. I think what I have done, is just pay attention to how my bights go on - I try and keep them balanced as I go. If the knot has "stages", where you tie one knot then increase, I stop at the first "stage" and balance everything before going on. I don't assume it will all work out... I tried that method and it does not work... best to just get it all balanced before proceeding.

I can see how you are in a dilemma here and I too would not proceed with this knot until I got this straightened out. It might help to loosen a little, and try and get everything balanced with a little more "space" due to the loosening. To me it is key to get all those little empty squares the same size, orientation and placement.

To prevent in the future... what I often did was sit and go through the knot, and see where that bight ended up once the knot was tied and balanced. Then when I went to tie that one again, I tried to put that bight there right from the git-go. A very subtle difference in the placement of those first bights you throw can really help.

I don't know if that's any help... that's just what *I* do. Maybe there's a better way and we'll both learn...

[Alan Bell]

Well, that happens to everyone that tries to braid and the only REAL answer is for you to just keep braiding and trying to make each pass as even as possible as you go on and the angle of the strands as you make each pass. There really is nothing to tell some one to help them out expect to keep on practicing and try to remember exactly what you did on the knot that finally came out good!!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[wantmorelandandcattle]

I do one thing to avoid this. I will do my best to explain.

When you make your 1st pass that is following the standing end, instead of placing it right next to the sanding end, put it by the string to the right. (When you finish your button and everything is evenly spaced, this is were it will be. It won't be right next to the standing end) This give you plenty of room for all your passes and to build the knot bigger. When you come down on the other side, do the same thing. The reason it gets crowded is that you keep trying to build the knot bigger by putting the strands in the same place, next to the standing end. This really cuts down on all the time you spend trying to even out your foundation.

The first pass is where I check to see how big my boxes are, and then after every pass I check them and shape them up to be even. The boxes I am referring to are the dead space in between my strands. When your foundation is complete, these boxes should be about the same width as your strand is. If it is too wide, you have two options. One, you can build the foundation a little bigger or make more passes with your interweaves.

I hope this helps. If not, I would be happy to take a couple of pics this weekend and could post them.

[rawhide1]

HorsehairBraider

I hear what your saying about keeping it even from the get go. I reckon I just need to double my efforts in that regard. And that hoping everything will come out allright in the end always gets me.LOL I did get the knot straightened out it was a pain but I got it done. When I do the other side I'll make sure everything is even after each bight. Thank you for your time and help.

Mike

Alan

The dreaded word practice LOL. I need a lot of it. After looking at the knot I think if the angle of my strings had been steeper it might of worked better. I'll have to try it on the other side. Thanks for the help

Mike

[rawhide1]

Jake

That makes a lot of sense!! Your right when adding a bight I always come up next to the standing end. I'm going to move it over closer to the other string. WOW I have a few things to try different. Thanks for your help.

Mike

[entiendo]

I'd love to see those pictures wantmoreland. I don't quite get what you are saying and I've run into the same problem.

[Esson]

I'd love to see those pictures wantmoreland. I don't quite get what you are saying and I've run into the same problem.

I also am having the same problem? I have the problem of the strands when I'm done they aren't all together per say. I have to push it all together and then things are too loose? I have been trying the Cowboy Gaucho Knot on plates 165 and 165A in Grants Encyclopedia. Is these the same everyone else is talking about?

Thanks!

Esson

[wantmorelandandcattle]

Sorry it took so long to get this posted everyone. This was a lot tougher than I thought it would be. Ok, here we go, I'll give it a shot. I tried to get better pics, but this is as good as it gets.

A little background info. This is the building of a turks head, I believe it turned out to be 8 bights and 9 parts (correct me if I'm wrong, this is not my strong point!) This is for the foundation and no interweave is shown. Everything will be over one under one when the button is complete. The strand is 1/8 of an inch kangaroo hide, and was not beveled (I was too lazy for this post!). I placed numbers on the mandrel for clarity, but did not reference them in this post. I believe the mandrel is 3/8 dowel and the button is braided over a thin piece of leather around 1/2 wide width a few wraps of masking tape on top. This is how I make some of my scarf slides.

When I first start the button, it looks like this. The strands that cross in back are directly on the opposite side of where the strands cross in the front. The only difference is, in the back, they are at the top of the button. They cross at the bottom in the front. This will be important later on.

I pay really close attention to spaces between these, and all parallel strands. I point this space out with my fid. The spacing should be equal to or slightly less than the width of my strand. This is very important to maintain throughout the whole process. Every time I bring my strand around, I lay it in the same distance from the strand next to it.

In this picture, I have skipped at few passes on the button for clarity. This is still going to be confusing anyway. There are 3 strands that I will point out in this picture. There is the standing or dead end. This is the strand that is to the far left, you can see the tail of it hanging down below the button. This is where I started my button. The next strand to the right, pointing up, is the running end. This is the end I am using to make all my passes. The next strand to the right I will call strand 1.

Strand 1 is the pass that I made just before the pass I am making in the picture. With strand 1, I followed my standing end and did exactly what it did. When it went under a strand, I went under, when it over, I went over. The important thing is that I did it far away from the standing end to the right. If you continued to run that pass next to the standing end, you would get way overcrowded and have to straighten it all up later. That's why I go all the way to the right when I lay a pass. it's really important to start your button like the picture above so there is plenty of room to lay your passes away from the standing end.

When I come back with the next pass (this is what is pictured). There is plenty of room to lay the next pass.

I want to point out a couple of things here. After I make a pass that sets up my pairs; doubles; or what ever you want to call them, and I split them (take the next pass), I check to make sure the spacing between my parallel strands is the width of the strand I am braiding with, or slightly less. I do this at least 4 or 5 times on every button. It saves a lot of headaches and time. I also check the length of my bights. They should not be very long. If your making an 8 bight button and one or more of your bights goes half way around your core, you better straighten it out right away. They should only come up, around what ever you are braiding the button over, and then go right back down. This will lead to over crowding. One thing you can do to check, is look down on the top of your button. Each bight should take up an equal distance on the button. For example, on a 4 bight button, each bight will take up 1/4 of the top of the button. For an 8 bight button, it will be 1/8th. Remember, these buttons are symmetrical!

The button is finished here. In this picture, I am using my fid to point out the "boxes". While braiding the button, your parallel strands will begin to take up the "weave" look (O1, U1) and make these "boxes" or diamond shaped spaces. If you are keeping your parallel strands spaced the width of your strand, these boxes will be the same size or slightly smaller than your strand. When you come back through with your interweave, you will be in effect, filling in these boxes. If they are wider than the strand you are braiding with, you will have gaps in the strands of your "finished" (meaning after you run your interweave) button. If your boxes are evenly distributed around your button and are still larger than your strand, you have 2 choices. You can make another set of passes and increase the size of your foundation button, or when you do your interweave, you can make more passes. I highly recommend you make an additional pass in your foundation if you are just getting started.

When I am dressing up a button before an interweave, I make sure that the crosses that my strands make are in line with the other crosses both vertically and horizontally. They should match up with the crosses your bights make also. After that, you do what ever interweave you have chosen to do and finish the button.

Sorry if I was a little long winded. I wanted to make sure it was really clear. This stuff is easy to talk about, but hard to write about. I hope this helps, if not, at least I got got some good typing practice in! Good luck!

[rawhide1]

Jake

I want to Thank You very much for doing this as I know it's time consuming. I'm sure this will help me as well as others. And I know what you mean by it being easier to say than to type. Once again a big THANKS!!!

Mike

[millwright]

Well done Jake. You made some good points that should save lots of time and headaches for many of us.

[entiendo]

Thanks a lot, I can't wait to try it out. I really appreciate the work you put in it, that's very kind of you.