Questions for the tree makers

[1horsetown]

I stumbled across this forum a couple of weeks ago in my attempt to research saddle trees and have been very impressed with the knowledge base represented here. I have some questions that I'd like to ask.

I have a Haflinger. Think rather short, extreme bulldog type. 13HH and 8 hands wide. He's the gamest horse I've ever ridden. Excellent brain and cute personality.

His conformation challenge is that he's built a little down hill. Not tragically, but somewhat.

I read somewhere (ages ago) that a build-up can be constructed into a tree. I'd like to level up the saddle around an inch, maybe a hair more.

I'm currently using a saddle made by an endurance type saddle maker. It seems to fit my guy pretty well, but I keep thinking that some things would be easier for him if the balance was shifted.

I've tried a couple of different front lift pads, but they just won't work for real life riding. What wither this horse has completely disappears and ,all of a sudden, I'm sitting on a greased pig. The saddle is completely lost. And let me tell you, you look totally ridiculous using a mounting block to get on a 13HH horse!!

I have the one horse. I will keep the one horse. I'm a one horse at a time person. I'm willing to spend the money to make this one happy/comfortable.

I'm currently obsessed with Extreme/Ultimate Trail Challenges. I'm taking roping lessons and would like to do Ranch Horse Versatility in the future. I hang out with a very traditional crowd, so I'm thinking Wade.

So.........What can be done for this situation? Seat alterations? Build up?

thanks in advance for your input. Kelly and Shorty in SW Iowa.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

1horse, your post opens the quandary for custom saddle and tree makers - Do I build a saddle to fit an unusual shaped horse?

First, can it be done? Partially. I am sure a saddle could be built to fit your horse which is better than an off the rack saddle, since from your description your horse is at the far end of the bell curve of horse shapes, and most saddles are built to fit horses in the middle section of the bell curve. Could a saddle ever fit your horse as well as a horse that has a back that is shaped better to hold a saddle in place? ie. not totally convex or flat in every direction? No. Some backs are shaped to hold a saddle better than others, and yours isn't one of those. (I'm sure that isn't news to you.)

Second, should it be done? This is the dilemma. On one hand, you are an owner willing to put in the money and effort to get a better fitting saddle, and it is not your horse's fault his shape is not conducive to holding a saddle well. But on the other hand, your statement "I'm a one horse at a time person" is the key. As much as you love this horse, he won't stay young, sound, and with you forever. At some point the saddle won't be used on him any longer, and then what happens? Finding another horse with the same unusual conformation that the saddle will fit is unlikely, especially if it is sold. And everywhere that saddle goes, not fitting horses, it carries the maker's name and reputation with it. So every maker has to decide for themselves if they will do this or not. Some will. Many won't.

That said, it is probably better to make changes in the groundseat for yourself than by trying to build up the front of the tree. You want the horn as close to the horse as you can get it to reduce leverage if you ever plan on roping. Roping off a horse of this conformation can be "interesting". I am not trying to discourage you, but realistically there is a reason why most working horses used on a ranch have a good set of withers on a back shaped differently than your horse's. Raising the horn by building up the front of the tree will make the tree even more unstable when roped from.

Hopefully some of the saddle makers on here will have more suggestions for you.

I did a bit of looking about Haflingers. They seem to be used as harness horses a lot. The qualities that make a good pulling horse don't always make a good riding horse, so I am curious - did they start out as draft type animals that are now ridden, do you know?

[1horsetown]

My current saddle, with a 3/4" wool felt pad and a mohair cinch, stays put. Mounting, dismounting, small jumps, dragging big fence posts, etc. He's got some wither to work with. I dragged a 100# fence post all over the property last night and the saddle never budged.

If I try to add something to the pad to lift the front a little we get into 'greased pig' territory. It's like trying to wear 6 pairs of socks with your favorite boots, though. They just don't fit like they were intended to.

Which is why I'm wondering about a build up. If it's built into the saddle, it wouldn't do the 'greased pig' thing.

Shorty isn't terribly downhill, I just want him to be comfortable. This is mostly an exploration of what is possible to that end.

Haffies are pretty normally still rideable into their 30's. Shorty is 10. If there's no chance of the saddle fitting another horse, I'd happily toss it into the same hole as the horse (when the time comes). I have to admit, I'm pretty hooked on Haffies. The next horse will probably be a Haffie too, hopefully from the same bloodline. I plan on having this horse til it's time to plant him.

Haflingers were developed by the Austrian military in the 1800's. They wanted a military use horse, so they designed one. Haffies are a cross between an Arab stallion named Folie and Austrian draft mares, the more refined the better. The result was kind of the Austrian answer to the American Morgan. Big enough to ride, nice enough to drive, heavy enough to pull, agile enough to pack supplies through the Alps, and still gentle enough to be a family horse. All Haffies are half Folie and half draft.

Alot of them do drive, but more of them are ridden these days.

We have no idea how Shorty came out looking like he does. No other horse in his family has his build. The bulldog build is common,but is unusual for his family tree. All Haffies are DNA tested, so we know who his parents are. He has 16 FULL brothers and sisters. His dam and sire are in their mid/upper 20's and still going strong.

You've given me some things to think about. Thanks Kelly

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Thanks for the info on Haflingers. Always good to learn more.

You say that your current saddle stays in place and works well unless you over pad it. Is he showing signs of soreness, or what makes you think he isn't comfortable now? I'm not sure I am understanding why you are wanting to change things if you think the saddle fits him well now. Or are you not feeling balanced in the saddle and you're thinking that might be affecting him? I still don't think I have the correct picture of the why behind your question, which probably affects the answer to it.

Thanks for persisting.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[1horsetown]

I've had Shorty about 3 years. Before that I had a 2 Eyed Jack gelding that was pretty thoroughbredish. (read: wide as a picket fence and a colossal set of withers.) Cinches were kinda decorative on Roc. You didn't need one to keep the saddle on.

But during the 20+ years I had Roc I did over 8 years of dressage. English riders in general and my trainer in particular are obsessed with 'leveling the saddle'. Roc was pretty level, but we had to pad out his withers because there didn't seem to be a saddle in my price range that worked with his build. Custom english saddles can cost more than custom western saddles.

I've fought with saddle fit on Shorty as long as I've had him. I started with an Arab barred saddle that left dry spots and migrated to a treeless for a bit. I used a draft barred slick fork for a while. Shorty was morbidly obese when I got him and it took a while to get him trim (I took 300# off him). Haffies have the digestive integrity of a cockroach, you don't feed them like other horses. The draft saddle fit pretty good til Shorty lost weight and then it left dry spots on both sides of the spine. The draft saddle made me tip forward, so it probably made the situation worse. I also had to see the chiro after each ride.

The current saddle still has inconsistent sweat patterns, but I don't know if it's damage from previous saddles or if it's this saddle. They are in the same places. I moved the rigging back to the 3/4 position the other night, but haven't worked up enough of a sweat to know if the pattern has changed. Could the rigging be causing some of the problem? The cinch looks better placed now that it's moved back. This saddle really helps me sit up, so I feel like I'm sitting properly. Shorty's 'saddling behaviors' have disappeared and he moves out better than he has since I've had him. So I know the situation is improved.

So....in conclusion. I'm seeing inconsistent patterns, but I'm not sure if they're old saddle fit issues still showing or current issues. A friend of mine has a mule that lived with terrible saddle fit for about a year and even though they have corrected the fit, the mule's back is too damaged to sweat consistently, even 4 years later. AND.......I've got a 'level the saddle' hangover from my dressage days that's maybe making me over thinking this. I know just enough about saddle fit to be dangerous.

kelly

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Kelly

The idea of having a "level seat" is common when I read about fitting English saddles, but I have yet to get a clear idea what is really means. Different people describe it differently. Could you please describe from a rider's perspective what you understand a "level seat" to be?

When you say you see inconsistent sweat patterns, does that mean you have dry spots in different places after your rides?

[1horsetown]

My trainer wanted the seat parallel to the ground. You couldn't post properly unless the position was exact. It had nothing to do with the position of the saddle in relation to the horse.

Consistent sweat marks, to me, would be no dry spots. Shorty gets them in the same place every time. They are very similar to the dry spots from the previous saddle, which is why I can't really tell if they are new or old.

kelly

[AndyKnight]

for a previous saddle to affect the fit of the current saddle it must have done soft tissue damage to where there is chronic swelling. ( This will be able to be noticeable) This will then cause a future saddle to be prone to also cause too much pressure in the same spot. In most case swelling will be temporary. Denise will be more qualified to address that.

If you are getting dry spots from excessive pressure it can be relieved by "padding away from the pressure." Never add more padding to alleviate pressure.

Your current saddle may be no better than your first saddle. The best way to determine saddle fit is by riding . I would suggest that as the dry spots are consistent on every ride is that you still have issues.

The" Level seat " is put into the saddle by the saddlemaker in the ground seat. The other factor that will have some bearing on this is the position of the stirrup leathers in relation to the low spot of the seat. So on a saddle that is going to be used on a down hill horse the saddlemaker may at his dicretion shape the seat accordingly. The issue then becomes whether the saddlemaker wants to do this knowing that the saddle will likely end up on normal horses and the the balanced seat will now put the rider in a butt back and feet ahead seat.

Rigging may change pressure spots to a degree however if you can ride with a loose cinch it will show whether it is a rigging issue or your weight causing a tree fit issue. Riding with an overly tight cinch will compound saddlefit problems and also the weight of the rider. The heavier a rider is and also the more out of balance ,the more poor saddle fit is exasperated

I am not sure if I explained myself very well.

Andy

Edited June 8, 2009 by AndyKnight

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

1horse

It must be a terminology thing. The seats in most saddles - English and western - are so curved (in many various ways) that there is rarely a flat enough area to determine how "parallel to the ground" it may or may not be. Yes, if a saddle is tipped forward or backward enough it can affect the way the rider sits (sqare, tilted forward or leaned back) and where the stirrups fall relative to their body position, but that is due to the shape of the seat and the shape of the rider. Making a flat spot that is parallel to the ground is no guarantee that the seat will position a rider correctly. Most dining room chairs have seats that are parallel to the ground but I wouldn't want to sit on one of them when riding a horse. As Andy said, where the low point is (gravity always works), how the groundseat is shaped and the stirrup position relative to the seat are what is most important in positioning a rider correctly and comfortably. That is what good saddle makers do well. You say that "This saddle really helps me sit up, so I feel like I'm sitting properly." Sounds good to me. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, especially to fit a "rule" that may or may not be correct.

A friend of mine has a mule that lived with terrible saddle fit for about a year and even though they have corrected the fit, the mule's back is too damaged to sweat consistently, even 4 years later.

First question - can he ever sweat there? If he can sweat in those areas at times other than when he wears a saddle, then he does not have permanent damage to his sweat glands leading to the dry spots. I would think that damage so severe as to cause sweat gland disruption would be seen or felt in the skin other ways as well. To the best of my knowledge at this time, most long term saddle damage causes atrophy of the underlying muscles, not chronic swelling. Again, if there was scar tissue forming lumps causing the problem, they also would be easily felt. So this is a new idea to me.

Calling in Bruce or Chuck here. Any experience with this veterinary wise?

Edited June 8, 2009 by Denise

[Traveller]

First question - can he ever sweat there? If he can sweat in those areas at times other than when he wears a saddle, then he does not have permanent damage to his sweat glands leading to the dry spots.

Perhaps if you lunged him with a bareback pad on you'd find out whether he was permanently damaged or not. If it's a warm day, he should sweat underneath the pad and any lack of sweat marks won't be influenced by the rider's weight.

As for building a custom saddle, maybe you could find out whether a saddle built for your horse would fit on another horse after he's gone. I'm having some difficulty fitting saddles on my horse and have learned that, though he'll have to have a slightly different tree than your average horse, it can be built in such a way that the saddle will fit regular horses as well as him. (By the way, I'm not a saddle maker, just a saddle buyer!)

Good luck!

Joanne