Special requirements for down-hill built horses?

[Tosch]

There has been something going around my mind for some time …..

I remember a pre-crash remark from Bruce J that he hardly sees any up-hill built (Quarter) horses anymore, but a lot of horses that are level built or even down-hill. I observe the same over here in the QH type of horses.

I understand from he „rigging type..." topic that rigging position does not effect where the saddle sits on a horse's back, provided the tree fits the back. (Where a specific rigging position has to be positioned, see "point of reference on a tree"). I also understand that the full rigging position might not be the best choice as it applies most of the downward pull at the front while a rigging set back a bit "spreads the pull over the whole tree, not just the front of it".

I would think that for a riding horse that has to carry a saddle it would be best if he were built up-hill with well defined withers. Let us assume we have another horse with the same back conformation, but he is built down-hill. And we have a saddle that fits the identical back conformation of both horses.

Now I wonder: Regardless of the rigging position, would not the down-hill built horse have to carry more "weight" on his front end because of his built? Would not a saddle rigged let us say ¾ have the tendency to move forward – regardless that the bar configuration nicely fits the back shape itself, but just because the horse is built down-hill? Wouldn't that even increase the effect that the down-hill horse already has to carry more "weight" on his front end because of his built?

Besides not breeding/riding down-hill built horses can the trees somehow be altered to lower the level of discomfort caused by their built? Do you do some modifications to the saddle tree / the saddle when you know it will be used on a down-hill built horse?

Tosch

Edited March 16, 2008 by Tosch

[greg gomersall]

A downhill built horse is a polite term for a comformation defect. The only way to keep a saddle from slidding forward on a horse like this is a crupper or a britching. It is unfortunate that people continue to breed these type of horses in our culture. Greg

[David Genadek]

I agree with Gregg, unfortunetly it is hard to find QH that is not down hill. Judging that from the base of neck to the point of hip not the whither and croup. The whither is not a factor in the horses orientation. I see it as more of an issue of the trees orientation than a rigging issue but I'm odd man out on that on this list. Any rigging style or position should be putting the pressue to the middle of the bar if you have a double rigged saddle that happens by having equal pressure on the front and rear cinch. If you have a triangular rigging such as a flat plate rigging then it is done by the shape of the triangle.

I have had extremely good luck on horses with a down hill conformation by making the rear cinch slightly tighter than the front cinch.

"Let us assume we have another horse with the same back conformation, but he is built down-hill. And we have a saddle that fits the identical back conformation of both horses." If one is built down hill and the other is not then they have different conformations. They may have the same shape of rib cage but when you change the orientation every thing else is effected.

Personally I change the relationship between the spread in the front of the tree and the rear of the tree. I never build atree that is wider in the front than it is in the rear as it rare to see an uphill horse these days.

This is a huge issue for the industry as few know how to support the down hill horse when they ride so many are crippled before they hit their prime.

David Genadek

[Tosch]

So the tree maker works hard to build a good functional tree. The saddle maker works hard to position the rigging correctly. And then - nevertheless- the tree cannot function as good as it theoretically could because of a "conformation defect" in probably most of the horses you build saddles for since "it is hard to find QH that is not down hill". Isn't that frustrating?

Tosch

[greg gomersall]

Most of the QH's are not downhill but some bloodlines tend to have more that are than others. All horses as yearlings into early maturity grow through growth spurts were one end grows faster than the other so this stage of life can cause fitting issues but then again a young horse should not be used hard while he is still developing anyways. Greg

[David Genadek]

The commonly accepted method amongst experts in the area of conformation and equine locomotion to determine if a horse is down hill or not is to draw a line from the point of the hip to the base of the neck. This line is tells you how level the horse is. This is line A in the attached drawing.

It is an old wives tale that you use the croup and whither as in line B.

If you use the proper well established method for determining if the horse is down hill or not you will be hard pressed to find a QH that is not down hill. The second picture is of a Tennesee Walker which is just slightly down hill.

David Genadek

[Kevin]

I haven't been around any western stuff in 30 years, is that horse really preferable to anyone? Its back looks like the horse the kids rode on Our Gang. How could anything be made that wouldn't bridge all the way from back to front? Kevin

[David Genadek]

I haven't been around any western stuff in 30 years, is that horse really preferable to anyone? Its back looks like the horse the kids rode on Our Gang. How could anything be made that wouldn't bridge all the way from back to front? Kevin

Kevin,

This horse shows no indication of a sway back. How you would tell would be to look at line A and compare it to the top line. In this case you can see they are nearly parralel indicating that the spine itself is where it should be. This horse is down hill though. I have attached her papers so you can get an idea of her breeding.

This horse has had a very successful show career and has won in open shows in Western Pleasure, English Pleasure , side saddle pleasure and halter classes under well known judges like Don Burt and Karl Yensen. She is a tremendouse cow horse.

At twenty she is still sound with no navicular or ring bone in site because she has been properly supported. We have no problem fitting her with a saddle.

David Genadek

[mulefool]

I agree it isn't always useful to use the top of the wither versus top of croup to determine whether the horse is downhill. When you are using the base of the neck as the measurement, I'm not clear exactly how you are determining the "base" of the neck. Could you clarify?

Would you ever do anything different to the ground seat to level out the feel for the rider?

What about using a slightly built up pad in the front to level the tree?

I have to confess that in spite of suggesting my customers avoid horses that are built downhill, I bought a mule that is downhill. She was young, and I'm a sucker for a pretty face, I guess. Add to that a muley back and one of those bellies that funnels everything toward the front. I have used a 1/4" piece of felt on top of my pad in the front. Of course I use a britchen and I also use a mohair cinch for my back cinch and run it behind the wide part of her belly. It seems to work but I'm a little sheepish about this set up.

[David Genadek]

If you take your hands on both sides of the neck and stroke down you will find spot that widens out and that is area we are looking for.

Would you ever do anything different to the ground seat to level out the feel for the rider? You have two ways you can compensate. One the ground work which will allow you to get a level base for the pelvis but will not address the forces being applied to the horses body. Two you increase the spread of the rear of the saddle or narropw the spread inteh front so the back of the saddle will drop to create the level paltform for the pelvis. In short you are orienting the saddle exactly opposite the horses orientation which adds up to a level seat which will releave the pressure on the horse and put the rider is a balanced position. One caution here though is that some horses are so down hill that you would go past the bottom limit of the bar ( which is where the ribs appear from the body).

What about using a slightly built up pad in the front to level the tree? If done correctly and correctly would depend on where the tree was designed to sit. In any case you would want to gradually taper the the pad so you don't create an edge or hollow spot. I make a shim for this purpose and we have used it on thousands of horses very effectively.

Down hill is a reality that is not going away. For twenty years I have worked with a leading expert on conformation, I live with multi licensed judge and some one that is internationaly repected for her work with conformation as it pertains to gait. If you ask either of these two how to buy horse you will be told to look the horse in the eye and if you fall in love with it buy it. Should you consider the conformation as it pertains to your goals? Sure you should but in end it is about learning to support whatever conformation you may come across.

Mules have a problamatic shape for cinching. If you cut them in half and look at the cross section their ribs they are onion shaped. If you look at them from the top they look like a pear. Their underline curves up quickly toward the front. As rule their top lines are fairly strait so the top is pretty easy to fit. The problem is that the cinches want to move that is why the packers used X shaped cinches. Try it you'll like it. You can take two mohair cinches and just cross them if you would like to give it a go with out needing to buy anything.

David Genadek

[bcurrier]

A downhill built horse is a polite term for a comformation defect.

The deal is, all horses have conformation defects, so it really is more a matter of how the aspects of a given horse's conformation play against each other. Nothing particularly bad about a horse downhill a bit as long as there are other factors in play, like heavy bone, for example.

The only way to keep a saddle from slidding forward on a horse like this is a crupper or a britching.

Depends on the ribs, but you're right for most cases. You don't see them as much as you should, though.

Bill

[mulefool]

Thanks for your thoughts and clarification David. As to the x shaped packer cinch. I know they are popular for this purpose and I sell alot of them for pack saddles. I started out using one of those and found that on my mule it actually made things worse as I had TWO cinches pulling things forward. Running the back cinch behind the belly made a huge difference in keeping the saddle from funneling forward.

[shadow44]

Hi David,

Just for you're information, I know from personal experiences that a down hill horse could be change buy regular training, lack of training just like human exercises might result in down hill problems, if you take a look at human abdominal specially on mens you will find that if we let things go the billy will come out and the back will arc, same thing will happened with horses back.The best exercises for that is the trot for a period of 15 to 20 minutes head down with a good and fast stride that will push up the back of the horse, you have to strengthened the back muscles, this takes time and patience but the results will come. I bought a QH mare in 2005 she was 4 years hold she had that problem even the owner thought nothing could be done 6 months after she looked gorgeous, she still looks good today.

Regards

Johnny.

If you take your hands on both sides of the neck and stroke down you will find spot that widens out and that is area we are looking for.

Would you ever do anything different to the ground seat to level out the feel for the rider? You have two ways you can compensate. One the ground work which will allow you to get a level base for the pelvis but will not address the forces being applied to the horses body. Two you increase the spread of the rear of the saddle or narropw the spread inteh front so the back of the saddle will drop to create the level paltform for the pelvis. In short you are orienting the saddle exactly opposite the horses orientation which adds up to a level seat which will releave the pressure on the horse and put the rider is a balanced position. One caution here though is that some horses are so down hill that you would go past the bottom limit of the bar ( which is where the ribs appear from the body).

What about using a slightly built up pad in the front to level the tree? If done correctly and correctly would depend on where the tree was designed to sit. In any case you would want to gradually taper the the pad so you don't create an edge or hollow spot. I make a shim for this purpose and we have used it on thousands of horses very effectively.

Down hill is a reality that is not going away. For twenty years I have worked with a leading expert on conformation, I live with multi licensed judge and some one that is internationaly repected for her work with conformation as it pertains to gait. If you ask either of these two how to buy horse you will be told to look the horse in the eye and if you fall in love with it buy it. Should you consider the conformation as it pertains to your goals? Sure you should but in end it is about learning to support whatever conformation you may come across.

Mules have a problamatic shape for cinching. If you cut them in half and look at the cross section their ribs they are onion shaped. If you look at them from the top they look like a pear. Their underline curves up quickly toward the front. As rule their top lines are fairly strait so the top is pretty easy to fit. The problem is that the cinches want to move that is why the packers used X shaped cinches. Try it you'll like it. You can take two mohair cinches and just cross them if you would like to give it a go with out needing to buy anything.

David Genadek

[David Genadek]

Hi David,

Just for you're information, I know from personal experiences that a down hill horse could be change buy regular training, lack of training just like human exercises might result in down hill problems, if you take a look at human abdominal specially on mens you will find that if we let things go the billy will come out and the back will arc, same thing will happened with horses back.The best exercises for that is the trot for a period of 15 to 20 minutes head down with a good and fast stride that will push up the back of the horse, you have to strengthened the back muscles, this takes time and patience but the results will come. I bought a QH mare in 2005 she was 4 years hold she had that problem even the owner thought nothing could be done 6 months after she looked gorgeous, she still looks good today.

Regards

Johnny.

Johnny,

You bring up an excellent point but there is a difference between the horses’ actual conformation and a pathology created by poor riding. If a horse has been improperly ridden it will drop the base of its’ neck. A tie down is an automatic way of producing this sort of pathology. This to me is what makes the difference between being a saddle maker or an upholsterer. A saddle maker will know the difference between the actual conformation and pathology. You can’t actually change how downhill the horse is any more than you could change how tall someone actually is, but, as your experience has taught you, you certainly can correct poor posture which will then give an accurate measure of how tall someone is. I understand what you mean when you say strengthen the top line but what is actually happening is that you are releasing the top line a strengthening the under line.

David Genadek