Help Turn back

[megabit]

Ok, I am going to be making my first bosal soon. I am trying to figure out how to do Alan's style nose button, but can't get the turn back. Here is my practice prototype, how do I do the strings going right? Or did I screw up the strings I already turned back?

[KnotHead]

Hi megabit.

The strands going right should continue to follow the bight until you can't go anymore without starting a 3rd ply, or 3rd pass. Believe it or not, it does all workout properly. Prototype looks really good too.

Brian...

[megabit]

Ok, I am getting it now. Last night after I read your response I finished it out and ended up with a gaucho pattern. Would have been great but I was looking for a herringbone. It was late so off to bed I headed scratching my head. Naturally I couldn't get to sleep thinking about what did I do wrong? Think about the knots you normally tie how are the herringbone and gaucho different? Herringbone you turn inside the bight gaucho you make a new one.

Sorry about the crappy cell phone picture.

Thanks, I can hardly imagine how hard this stuff would be to learn with no one around or having a place like this online to virtually get together.

Knotthead, I don't know if I have ever taken the time to tell you how much I appreciate KHWW. The tutorials on there have helped me immensely as has everyone on here.

[KnotHead]

Hi Megabit.

Well the herringbone knot is going to give the look that is very similar to a heel knot, or even a one strand pineapple knot. However all three are tied a bit different than the other. A gaucho will give you a vertical look of a zigzag, or right and left zigzag look. Yes, the herringbone will turn in on the base knot much like the pineapple knot type 1 does, and the gaucho you are basically creating a new interweave by adding another bight in between bights.

That's the whole aim of communities like mine and this one. To promote, instruct and follow through making sure to never leave anyone behind if it can be helped. There may some mathematics and science to it also. LOL... You're welcome and thank you for the generous comments.

Brian...

[LBbyJ]

In the Bruce Grant Encyclopedia there are a couple of variations you can look at. The Back Braid of Six Strands (pg 115) is a herringbone design although I don't see much of a difference. And the Nose Button he speaks to a variation on how the braid is done to achieve either a horizontal or vertical V (pages 128 - 130).

Hope that helps, John

[Jordan]

Ok, I am getting it now. Last night after I read your response I finished it out and ended up with a gaucho pattern. Would have been great but I was looking for a herringbone. It was late so off to bed I headed scratching my head. Naturally I couldn't get to sleep thinking about what did I do wrong? Think about the knots you normally tie how are the herringbone and gaucho different? Herringbone you turn inside the bight gaucho you make a new one.

Sorry about the crappy cell phone picture.

Thanks, I can hardly imagine how hard this stuff would be to learn with no one around or having a place like this online to virtually get together.

Knotthead, I don't know if I have ever taken the time to tell you how much I appreciate KHWW. The tutorials on there have helped me immensely as has everyone on here.

WOW I thought my glasses broke. LOL. Real nice braiding, I got a book awhile back but have not gotten up the nerve to try any of it yet. Eventually It will be nice to have a leather handhold area on my walkin stick. Jordan

[CLH]

Ok, I am getting it now. Last night after I read your response I finished it out and ended up with a gaucho pattern. Would have been great but I was looking for a herringbone. It was late so off to bed I headed scratching my head. Naturally I couldn't get to sleep thinking about what did I do wrong? Think about the knots you normally tie how are the herringbone and gaucho different? Herringbone you turn inside the bight gaucho you make a new one.

Sorry about the crappy cell phone picture.

Thanks, I can hardly imagine how hard this stuff would be to learn with no one around or having a place like this online to virtually get together.

Knotthead, I don't know if I have ever taken the time to tell you how much I appreciate KHWW. The tutorials on there have helped me immensely as has everyone on here.

Hello Megabit, Some thing that might help in keeping your knot straight, Get a small screw driver (visulize this) heat the metal hot about a inch in ftont of the handle, bend down, cool it in water , than heat about 1/2" down and bend it straight out again,you'll have a stair step look,Than dress the end ,round it off and bevel the end up a hair.You should have a blade 4 to 6 inckes long. Use this to slip under a x and staighten the next one up the line , etc,etc. Hope that will help you. Clint Haverty

[megabit]

Hello Megabit, Some thing that might help in keeping your knot straight, Get a small screw driver (vistaighten the next one up the line , etc,etc. Hope that will help you. Clint Haverty

Thanks Clint, that sounds like it could be a useful tool to have.

[Alan Bell]

The other thing (I think I show this on the tutorial) is to have a grid to braid over. I will make 4 lines the length of the braid dividing into 4 quadrants and 3 lines around the dowel or noseband or whatever (for long knots) one center and one each side equidistance. The braid will cover the lines up and you can use them to line up the x's. Looking at your first pic as you start the back braid let's look at the strands going upper left to lower right in the first pass and look to see where they cross over a strand. That is where your spiral started! Your foundation was crooked to begin with. (bad Mikey, bad Mikey) Having lines underneath will aid in keeping this from happening. Then once you start your turn back you have to be extra careful because as you pull each strand you will be turning the foundation little by little but don't feel too bad I still battle this and I've seen bosals by Louis Ortega that spiral at one end! You have to check and re check each time you turn a strand back.

Vaya con Dios, Alan

[megabit]

To tell the truth, I was struggling to figure out how to do the turn back and wasn't paying much attention to the twist. I was just working on getting the pattern down. I have a gaucho knife I plan to put rawhide on for practice, on that I'll try to keep things straight and I'll draw the grid in.

Mike

[megabit]

Ok, I gave it a try in rawhide now. I tied a 4 bight on my gaucho knife. How's it look? It is certainly straighter than my paracord practice one.

[CLH]

Ok, I gave it a try in rawhide now. I tied a 4 bight on my gaucho knife. How's it look? It is certainly straighter than my paracord practice one.

Megabit, Something you may want to do on your nose button is ,when you get done with your first knot, and turn back, you look down your lines and have her straight, well ,try to move it over i/2 bight to the left. Do this on any long knot because when you start to tighten it will creep around.Thats how Nate get's his so digustinley straight. Also ,doin't make your first knot really tite,just lightly snug. Otherwise you'll pull it up over the ends as you put in your pairs and split them. Hope this helps some one, Clint Haverty

[Alan Bell]

Hey Mike, that is great improvement over your first practice! Congratulations! Now I will mention something that does not really apply to how well you braided the knot but to simple aesthetics, The braided handle is now too large for the knife. You have changed the balance of the handle to the blade so much that the form and function of what you are creating seems to be lost. In other words you would need much smaller strings for this project. A knife, any knife should have a balance to it and the knife maker goes through the steps required to create and maintain this balance. As braiders of cowboy gear I feel it is important to always consider the form and function of the gear we are trying to create. I just cut off a nose band because I felt that it came out too large for the balance of the bosal I was creating. My base was too large so I had to cut off the braided cover AND the base to start over. That being said you could use your knife for a while and continue to practice braiding and improving but at some point (you know what I'm gonna say.....) cut that knot off and start over! Remember, to keep any knot you cut off to show future aspiring braiders the kind of commitment that is required to improve. My box of cut off knots is getting pretty full I may need to get a shoe box!!!

Vaya con Dios, Alan

[megabit]

Clint,

So you are saying once I get the strings turned back to make the bights at the bottom to put a bit of counter twist in before I pull along side the strings coming down?

Thanks,

Mike

Megabit, Something you may want to do on your nose button is ,when you get done with your first knot, and turn back, you look down your lines and have her straight, well ,try to move it over i/2 bight to the left. Do this on any long knot because when you start to tighten it will creep around.Thats how Nate get's his so disgustingly straight. Also ,doin't make your first knot really tite,just lightly snug. Otherwise you'll pull it up over the ends as you put in your pairs and split them. Hope this helps some one, Clint Haverty

[megabit]

Hey Mike, that is great improvement over your first practice! Congratulations! Now I will mention something that does not really apply to how well you braided the knot but to simple aesthetics, The braided handle is now too large for the knife. You have changed the balance of the handle to the blade so much that the form and function of what you are creating seems to be lost. In other words you would need much smaller strings for this project....

So I need to weld on more blade?

Too bad you weren't still out here on the coast this last weekend, I think you would have enjoyed Vaquero Days. Do you know Ron Titus? He was giving some braiding demos and a short class on making a reata. He also teaches braiding I plan to try to get together with him for some in person instruction.