Inspiration, Copying, Giving Credit?

[UKRay]

John, I'd love to think that I had invented something that other folk copied. Sadly it is unlikely to happen... but if it did, I'd spend a while creating an amazing website that left it in no doubt who did the development work and the initial build. I'd then post that website on every board in my business area leaving it for the people to find out the truth for themselves. Folks are not silly. They know BS when they hear it.

I'd make sure that I gave my invention a fancy name - the 'JB Cross Over Dee System' - or some such nonsense. I'd then make sure that my fancy name was the only one used in my industry by spending time on the forums talking about it and making sure folk knew who had done the hard work and who was being generous enough to share their intellectual property.

I sure as hell wouldn't be asking questions about the rights and wrongs of copying something. We all know what is right and what is wrong - some folk simply ignore the voice in their heads and do it anyway. You can't legislate against people like that.

Reference: Inspired piece - that is easy too. If the idea has been taken and changed then that is an inspired piece. Anything else is a copy. Sadly, IMHO, there is very little you can do about copies other than take the steps above. Whatever you do, don't get mad about it as that is very unlikely to help the situation... and, bless 'em, people are inclined to laugh when you lose it! LOL

Ray

[Jordan]

Always give credit where it is deserved because it is the right thing to do, but that is also easy to overlook for some, if their motives are less than honourable. And always document or otherwise make it known that you have done something brand new, as long as you are sure it has never been done before. Knock off's are the bain of any product made, leather or otherwise. Not a whole lot to be done about it as the lazy will always find the easy way to profit. Just my opinion on the matter. BTW, You do excellent work and buyers will notice the difference.

[Spence]

IMHO, Everyone is right in their way of thinking, but, and it's a big but, as old as this craft is, is the word "invented" the proper word to be used? Maybe "adapted and improved upon" would be better and if the most recent "adaptor" of this method is known, a reference to them can and should be used - it's just the 'right' thing to do.

In ropework, up until about 60 years ago, there was only one knot named after a person - The Matthew Walker knot. In the past 60 years I've come across 5 or 6 knots named after someone and guess what, I've found a much older reference to the knot. These folks may have adapted and improved upon it and maybe even extended it a bit, but they didn't invent it.

This is not meant to take anything away from an 'Adaptor'. Anyone that can see something and improve upon it is a Master in their own right, as is someone that feels they invented a process in an age old craft. It just may have lacked research and they've adapted and improved upon the original.

[JohnBarton]

IMHO, Everyone is right in their way of thinking, but, and it's a big but, as old as this craft is, is the word "invented" the proper word to be used? Maybe "adapted and improved upon" would be better and if the most recent "adaptor" of this method is known, a reference to them can and should be used - it's just the 'right' thing to do.

In ropework, up until about 60 years ago, there was only one knot named after a person - The Matthew Walker knot. In the past 60 years I've come across 5 or 6 knots named after someone and guess what, I've found a much older reference to the knot. These folks may have adapted and improved upon it and maybe even extended it a bit, but they didn't invent it.

This is not meant to take anything away from an 'Adaptor'. Anyone that can see something and improve upon it is a Master in their own right, as is someone that feels they invented a process in an age old craft. It just may have lacked research and they've adapted and improved upon the original.

I agree with you to an extent. I certainly feel that people are inventing things leather work each day. Don King invented the Sheridan style of tooling and had to make new tools to execute it.

I do study a lot of leather working and study handbags, briefcases, and well just about anything made to carry something so that I can absorb and learn all the possibilities that there are.

Yes the craft of making things with leather is as old as killing animals to eat. And certainly using lace to bind the ends together is just as old.

My thing was that I took the idea of lacing the seam which is not new and the idea of riveting the D-ring holder on, which is also not new, and combined them into a new method that I certainly have never seen before which integrates the lacing through the holders. So I consider it as an invented technique, meaning it's a non-obvious way to do it. I am positive that no one else would do it this way because the stress points of the strap and handles would cause the lacing to loosen unless one was very careful to do it in such a way as to account for that, and in fact I can see from the way the other case maker used my idea that he probably didn't account for it. And the way I chose works perfectly and only came about through the expense of a lot of brainpower and trial and error. It's not rocket science, it's not world changing, and in some ways is a fairly impractical way of achieving the goal of attaching ring holders to a case. But it's something that I made up that's original as far as I know and until I see evidence of anyone else doing it on anything else prior to me then I have to believe I was first.

It's a big deal to be first with something. At least to me it is. Most of us aren't going to get rich off this stuff. Certainly the customer doesn't really care about the minute details like we do. But I think most of us here take a lot of pride in what we create and we are incredibly happy if we can make an improvement on something or if we are lucky invent something that we can bring to show and tell.

I guess what I am saying is that since I am not getting rich here I'd like to at least have some reputation for inventiveness or clever adaptiveness as a sort of intellectual wealth. I love showing off what we do, getting feedback, seeing everyone's work and their ideas, and giving back. I just don't like the feeling that I am a sort of unpaid R&D for the world. But I guess that's the price I pay for the ego-stroking I am looking for when I show off my stuff publicly.

:-) Y'all are cheaper than a shrink - THANKS

[Jordan]

Found this interesting take on copying others work today. If you're concerned about copying another person's design, keep in mind what Maloof said in his book "Sam Maloof, Woodworker" when asked about those who copy his furniture: "This reminds me of an anecdote about Hamada, the Japanese potter. When someone asked Hamada if imitations of his work bothered him, he replied, 'When I'm dead, people will think that all of my bad things were made by the other potter, and they will think that all of his good things were made by me.' "

Edited November 16, 2009 by Jordan

[JRedding]

John , I do understand the frustration of putting in a lot of valuable time to perfect a single idea with the hopes of it remaining original at least for a while, long enough maybe someone notices it came from you, or it can help you make a dollar or two because your product has some originality. After nearly twenty years I've come to the conclusion that most of the little things we add, change, or modify hit the street pretty fast these days. It's a lot different than the environment custom makers enjoyed decades ago, with the internet, people traveling a lot more, and a platoon of hungry competetors out there a single idea has the life span of one scrap of meat amongst sled dogs. A lot of people see something like that and it's not entireley new to lace a connector on instead of sew or rivet it I've done it hundreds of times just not on a cue case because I've never made one. But I've done it on horse gear and especially archery equipment, there's a quiver posted on here that I used the same method on. Having used the method a lot before I might have used it again on on a cue case just because it makes sense and I know how. Without knowing you had put a lot of time into it and considered it a unique idea for a case. Maybe the guy you mentioned gained the idea specifically from you and intentially grabbed onto your coat tails but the reality of it is there's not much you can do about it no matter how he got it, be it intentional or accidental. About ten years ago I worked with a guy who was a large customer of mine and a real good idea man, he had a lot of unique ideas in the horse market, he'd dream something up and I'd make it real and together we'd sell the hell out of it. It worked a long time but the longer we did it the faster his ideas became commonplace. We slowly gained a following of followers who would be kicking out our "new" stuff before the ink hardly dried on our new catolog. I fumed about it for years and the only thing I got for it was tired. It's a fuzzy line in some cases and some it isn't. I've also seen people "claim" an idea that was no more original than air and defend it to the death as their own. I agree with your thinking and felt the same for a long time I just don't beleive that's the world we live in anymore, but I admire your beleifs, we'd all be better off if more people felt the same.

[JohnBarton]

John , I do understand the frustration of putting in a lot of valuable time to perfect a single idea with the hopes of it remaining original at least for a while, long enough maybe someone notices it came from you, or it can help you make a dollar or two because your product has some originality. After nearly twenty years I've come to the conclusion that most of the little things we add, change, or modify hit the street pretty fast these days. It's a lot different than the environment custom makers enjoyed decades ago, with the internet, people traveling a lot more, and a platoon of hungry competetors out there a single idea has the life span of one scrap of meat amongst sled dogs. A lot of people see something like that and it's not entireley new to lace a connector on instead of sew or rivet it I've done it hundreds of times just not on a cue case because I've never made one. But I've done it on horse gear and especially archery equipment, there's a quiver posted on here that I used the same method on. Having used the method a lot before I might have used it again on on a cue case just because it makes sense and I know how. Without knowing you had put a lot of time into it and considered it a unique idea for a case. Maybe the guy you mentioned gained the idea specifically from you and intentially grabbed onto your coat tails but the reality of it is there's not much you can do about it no matter how he got it, be it intentional or accidental. About ten years ago I worked with a guy who was a large customer of mine and a real good idea man, he had a lot of unique ideas in the horse market, he'd dream something up and I'd make it real and together we'd sell the hell out of it. It worked a long time but the longer we did it the faster his ideas became commonplace. We slowly gained a following of followers who would be kicking out our "new" stuff before the ink hardly dried on our new catolog. I fumed about it for years and the only thing I got for it was tired. It's a fuzzy line in some cases and some it isn't. I've also seen people "claim" an idea that was no more original than air and defend it to the death as their own. I agree with your thinking and felt the same for a long time I just don't beleive that's the world we live in anymore, but I admire your beleifs, we'd all be better off if more people felt the same.

Thanks for the response. I am sure that people have laced connectors into goods before. Just not in the exact way I did it with the exact shape. I also didn't do it with the idea that it would be some revolutionary idea. I just was flattered when the other case maker took it and wanted a little credit because it obviously came from me.

I don't know if Peter Main was the first guy to do swivel knife accents on the back of belts. But since he is the first one I came across who did it I gave him credit for the inspiration to do something similar with swivel knife highlights on the inside rim of one of our cases.

I learned long ago when I tried to see if I could protect our designs that it's a fruitless endeavor 99% of the time. You can't copyright an item that has a "use". You can get a design patent which is nearly worthless and costly to defend. If you do get one you can SOMETIMES intimidate some infringers with it but most of the time they know that you can't do anything to them.

I am on both sides of the fence here as well because I do frequently use ideas from others. I have no compunction about taking someone else's good idea and figuring out how to use it. Many times I see people do things that I thought of or sketched out years ago and never got around to doing. I think that most of us who build things have had that happen sometimes. It's inevitable that people hit on the same ideas independently when working in the same field.

I agree wholeheartedly about the whole thing just making you tired. I used to get so down when I went to an event and I would see three or four other vendors with knockoffs of my best designs. It was hard to have people come up and tell me that they could get "the same case for half the price" down the row.

Now, it's not a big deal because almost all of my cases are unique and I am not dependent on dealers or mass production.

I suppose in some way I am providing R&D and templates for the knockoff artists but as you said it comes with the territory these days.

I will leave you with a story that I think you might appreciate more than most here.

Once in 1992 I had a woman come to my office in Germany who represented a billiard supplies trading company in China. I knew her from the trade shows and she was actually visiting one of her clients in the same town and decided to look me up. We had no business together at all other than exchanging cards once.

So she is in my office and we are making small talk and she asked me which of our cases is the best seller. I knew instantly what she was after so I said that the pink and blue vinyl ones were the hottest ones. I said we can't keep them in stock. So the visit concluded and she left.

Fast forward two months and I am at the trade show in the USA and I walk up to her booth and what do I see.......you guessed it a whole row of pink and blue cases prominently displayed.

She is obviously embarrassed but I play it off and ask her how the sales of them are going. She says that they aren't doing so well and that no one has placed any orders.

I said, "oh, I forgot to tell you that these are only popular in Germany. The Americans hate them."

[JRedding]

I love it, what a great story, that's one in the win column for sure. With so many people operating out there today you see and hear it all sooner or later. I seemed to have a knack for finding some little thing that hadn't been used for fifty years and implementing it fairly often. One was an old trick on the cantle binder of a saddle, it wasn't new it just hadn't been done as far as I could find for a very long time, several years after I started using it all the time I stood in Wichita Falls Texas and listened to a guy tell a few gatherers how he'd come up with that and he was such a trendsetter everyone else was just following along because he was so great we all just wanted to be like him. The guy was a much better storyteller than saddlemaker.

[Kustom]

John, I'd love to think that I had invented something that other folk copied. Sadly it is unlikely to happen... but if it did, I'd spend a while creating an amazing website that left it in no doubt who did the development work and the initial build. I'd then post that website on every board in my business area leaving it for the people to find out the truth for themselves. Folks are not silly. They know BS when they hear it.

I'd make sure that I gave my invention a fancy name - the 'JB Cross Over Dee System' - or some such nonsense. I'd then make sure that my fancy name was the only one used in my industry by spending time on the forums talking about it and making sure folk knew who had done the hard work and who was being generous enough to share their intellectual property.

Ray

Ray is so right here. What you're going for is is what we in marketing call "mindshare" http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Mind_share

John on your site you should have a section called "John Barton innovations" that talks about things you created.

If I was in the "pool cue game" I wood write a big glossy coffee table book with lots of great pictures, called something like "Art of the cue case". In the book I would take credit for my innovations and dole out credit to people that deserve it and exclude the copycat "hacks". I would have it published or self publish it. Then go on a book tour. Building a legend is hard work. Study up on "Nudie the rodeo tailor"and "Edward Bohlin, silver saddle maker." to see what I'm talking about.

If you want to get credit for something you have to take credit for it.No one is going to give it to you.

Good luck,

Steve

[8thsinner]

I do know how you feel on this topic.

A few weeks ago I saw one of my designs made by someone else who is on this forum. It was a practical utility design which I have been using and carrying for years.

Now to see someone else making it, And I freely admit his version is nicer and uses better leather is kinda cool it also makes me paranoid that all my stuff is going to get stolen. And some of my designs I do spend like yourself a long long time on, weeks sometimes. So that annoys me a little.

But I can also believe that someone else also came up with this design on their own, and have another person make it. I have no proof that his was done before mine, and when I realise that I have to simply say kudos to the man.

It's my idea but if people like it then they like it. Good for me, a little better for the person who made it for someone else and better for everyone who can share in the delight of using it.