Good Ranch Saddle

[Newfman]

That's too bad. He looks like he has some good bone and nice broad chest. Most of them around here have had all the good stuff bred out. Little pony feet and fine bones, ugh, what a mess. But Duke, man what a nice butt! I don't blame you, I wouldn't let him go either. Looks as kind and big hearted as can be as well.

Oops, I'm hijacking the thread. Sorry folks. Carry on.

[Shelly]

Just had to throw my 2 cents in here - My base price is $3300 - this gets you a rough out or slick out saddle, ready to ride. I am in total agreement with the analogy made about the different carmakers - same thing probably applies here. I think you can think of Keith's work, as well as the saddlemakers that are in the Traditional Cowboy Arts Assn, and the makers in that league, as the Ferrari's of our world, in that, while you can purchase an entry level product from each one, if money isn't an object, you can just about get anything you want done to it, within reason. (I know from personal experience that some requests are just not going to be done, for various reasons, just because you could 'afford' it, doesn't mean you should do it!)...

Anyway, I think most of the people that are wanting to buy a high end, custom saddle, for a Walmart price, don't put a lot of consideration into the whys of the pricing they see. When I consider that I now have at least $900 invested in a quality tree, leather, hardware, etc, and then have to consider the overhead for the shop, machinery costs/maintenance (part of the overhead), figuring in a salary, etc, and the fact that none of us want to be in business without at least a small glimmer of hope for making a profit in business, I'm a little disturbed by the comment I read about 'let's show these guys that a saddle can be made for $1500.00', etc - you get what you pay for in most cases. If anything is made by hand, with a high level of competency, why is it so hard for anyone to figure out that you aren't buying something that is being 'mass produced'? It also behooves the buyer to invest some time to learn about the differences in the quality of the work they are buying. I know of one exceptional saddlemaker that is no longer in the business, because he could not make a living, and became bitter about trying to justify his level of competency to a public that could not and would not understand the difference. He used to say that the years he spent learning the trade would have been better spent doing something else, because he feels he wasted those years, even tho it was on something he totally enjoyed doing, for himself, the horses his saddles were ridden with, and the people that knew the difference. Incidentally, his base price was $4000 when he left the business...

This said, I think, one reason I am still in this business is because of the area I am in, the fact that my clientelle seeks me out because they feel I do a quality job for what they pay, and they feel that I know and understand what they need - they are in the performance horse industry, and are comfortable that I know what they want in regards to form to function - I understand the terminology, training aspects, etc. I am always trying to do better for my customers, as well as for myself, and I think I will always be learning, refining, and trying to get not only to do right by the horse, but also my customer and myself.

Anyway, time to get off the soapbox, and back to work....

[kseidel]

I'm a little disturbed by the comment I read about 'let's show these guys that a saddle can be made for $1500.00',

I too have been disturbed by these kinds of statements. I could also build a saddle for these low prices, but I choose not to as I hold my training and experience in higher regard. I would have to work for so little per hour that I would be unable to maintain a living. I believe a makers prices should not only reflect his quality of workmanship, and his years of experience and advanced training up to that point, but should also be compenserate to a quality lifestyle. It concerns me when I see well made hand-built saddles selling for discount prices because it reflects negatively on our entire industry. It is one thing to work with leather as a hobby and not make wages or profit, but professionals have to compete for business at those discounted prices. I would encourage anyone doing leather work for sale to price their goods at a competetive price. By that I mean that it should be high enough to compare to professional work of similar quality and experience. Not under priced to under-sell the competitor.

I know of one exceptional saddlemaker that is no longer in the business, because he could not make a living, and became bitter about trying to justify his level of competency to a public that could not and would not understand the difference. He used to say that the years he spent learning the trade would have been better spent doing something else, because he feels he wasted those years, even tho it was on something he totally enjoyed doing, for himself, the horses his saddles were ridden with, and the people that knew the difference. Incidentally, his base price was $4000 when he left the business...

It is because of this inequitable competetion that many talented saddlemakers are leaving the business. It is also why younger people are not entering the field and developing advanced skills. There are not the rewards for advanced skills and training in the saddle business that there are in other industries. In fact, it is a pretty poorly paying occupation. If it continues on this course, I believe it is destined to be done only by hobby leatherworkers. A person gets a PhD in his field to get a higher salary. It should be also in the saddle business.

I am in need of experienced, qualified leatherworkers to work in my shop. I am able to pay the best wages in our industry, and even at that, there are none available. No one wants to train this long and work this hard for $15-$20 per hour. Who can blame them....

Well I guess I took over Shelly's soap box! Maybe I am preaching to the choir here, but I do not want to see this way of life disappear.

Respectfully,

Keith Seidel

[Newfman]

So, when do I start?

Ah, I must have overlooked the experienced part.

I know when i was building a small traditional timberframe barn for my horses, my neighbor who is a commercial builder, scoffed at the amount of work. He said he could stick build it faster and for less money. Granted, he can rough measure and nail gun a big shed together in no time, but that is all that it is. His would last for 20 years on the long estimate, mine is hand made, with traditional joinery, pinned together with oak pegs. If a good roof is kept on it, it will last for a couple hundred.

yeah, I was feeling a bit insulted.

There is a lot of pride in craftsmanship. Can't see selling it short.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Newfman

[Shelly]

Thanks, Keith!! You are so much more eloquent on the soap box than I am! One other thing I think I wanted to say here - there are plenty of 'Factory' saddles being made that are actually made on an assembly line, no one person is making them (one person laying out, cutting out parts, hand fitting, tooling, stamping, etc) - and they all have 'Custom Made', 'Hand Made', etc, giving the customer buying these cheaper factory saddles the impression that these are high quality, custom saddles...not the case! (I've visited shops such as these, and predicted exactly what we'd see, before we ever got inside - one was just what I'm talking about, and the customer was having the 3rd remake of this saddle done for her mare - I went with her and the mare the 3rd time, and she was floored by it - one person, possibly two, could speak fluent English) I've found that a few common things to look for when looking at these lesser priced saddles is: sheepskin will not be 'real', but that woven, fake stuff, (lets face it - a real good, 1" thick vegtan woolskin is expensive, so this is one of the first places to cut cost), and they will sometimes use a cardboard type of stiffener for the skirts, in place of skirting leather...then, edges are usually dyed to hide the fact that no time is spent at all on sanding, edging, and rubbing the edges to a glossy finish - something I and any good saddlemaker worth a flip will do, regardless if we dye the edge or not! Then, take a look at the cantle binder - did they put in great big pop stitches? Well, that is another area that screams 'factory'...see how long it takes to stitch no more than 6 stitches per inch, no pop stitches, and get the stitches to come out on the underside of the cantle in a nice even spacing - these are just a few of the things that add up in time, talent, etc - yet another corner cutting feature is really long machine stitches on the skirts, etc - it should be pretty much the same thruout - mine are 6 stitches per inch - all saddles, regardless of it being a base price job or a fancier one...I did try to increase the stitching to 7 or 8 once, and I found it to be a little dicey, in that the thicker the leather used, the needle and awl on the machine can cause it to 'zipper', so there is a point that it doesn't make sense to go to...my point is, when I have a customer that asks me what makes my saddles worth the base price, I point out these most obvious things, and then can show them some things that aren't so obvious - the things in the designing of the saddle that are sometimes based on traditional elements, and some that are driven by 'style' in the current show ring, in the disciplines that the rider shows in...beautiful lines on a saddle, whether in the design element, or the tooling, etc, will encourage your eye to flow around the saddle...one reason I am not a fan of the oak leaf in it's traditional sense here in Texas, is that it's a 'crash pattern', no real flow to it, as in other floral patterns. And, just so I don't get someone upset here - not all great saddlemakers are wonderful at carving - but they have a great eye for design, flow, etc, and do an exceptional job building a saddle of really great quality! I would rather see an exceptional set stamp saddle, or a plain one, (which is really hard by the way, to do 'cleanly'), than one with really terrible carving/tooling....(seen my share of them too)...

Maybe a few of the other guys here, Keith included, could also chime in here with a few other points to make when trying to see the differences?? Seems to me that many of the people here that need to learn a little more about what constitutes a high quality of work when it comes to hand made saddles might appreciate a bigger 'laundry list' than what I've listed...

And, so no one thinks I'm a 'miss know-it-all' - I think we must strive to learn something new, ongoing, all the time, to refine, improve, etc. I give it up to those guys that do such beautiful work on their saddles, etc, and can also do a fine job making their own engraved silver! I braid, and with all of the other things I do in my life, even tho silver work is intriguing, it's probably not something I'm going to put on my plate in the near future....but, someday??!! Guess what? Most large companies or corporations pay for their employees to do recurrent training, renew licenses, etc, etc, as well as nice benefit packages, in lots of cases. We have to also figure in our health care, any 'paid vacation' time, etc...sure does make my base price sound like it's still not enough...probably isn't!

Edited March 4, 2010 by Shelly

[ASMA]

I have been watching this subject and have bit my tongue until now. I can not agree more with Shelly and Keith. As both Shelly and Keith know, I have been on this price soap box for over 15 years now and have seen some progress, but not enough to win the battle. The question is, what constitutes a "good ranch saddle"? To define what is a good ranch saddle is a major task. The short version might be: a saddle that can bee ridden for 6 to 8 hours a day 4 to 5 day a week for 5 years comfortably for both horse and rider, handle the stress of roping 1000+ pound cattle on a daily basis, etc. A custom/hand made or the better production "factory" saddle might meet these needs.

Looking at a plain Jane roping saddle made by Courts, Circle Y, Colorado Saddlery, and Cactus Saddlery, you have an average wholesale price of around $1,425.00. Using an average retail markup the retail price is about $ 2,375.00. You can buy a Ford F-150 for $25,000.00, but it is not going to haul your 4 horse slant with living quarters or a stock trailer that can haul 10 horses. You might get by a few times without blowing a transmission. What you will probably needis a F-350 super duty at $60,000.00+. For the "gentleman rancher" a production saddle might work!

Also, it seemed to me we were not all on the same page. We need some general reference points. Quoting Shelly "and they all have 'Custom Made', 'Hand Made', etc, giving the customer buying these cheaper factory saddles the impression that these are high quality, custom saddles...". What is the definition of a custom saddle, hand made saddle, production saddle, etc.? ASMA has addressed this in our STANDARDS AND PRACTICES section of our website. These definitions are purposely broad or one would have way too many categories to be useful.

As to price, again, ASMA in the STANDARDS AND PRACTICES section we detail the minimum national average cost for a custom saddle. As a note: using the U.S. poverty rate income for a family of 4 the minimum national average cost for a custom saddle is $2,223.97. The numbers tell it all.

I invite you to go to the ASMA website for the details. www.saddlemakers.org

In all fairness to Mr Snead, at $1500.00 wholesale, he is in line with the other production companies.

Respectfully submitted,

　

Bob

　

Edited March 5, 2010 by ASMA

[Steve Brewer]

Bob,It is good to see the ASMA respond to this thread,I use old school meathod of figuring prices.Take bowdens price for a kit saddle(approx. 800),$800.00 for labor,800 for profit and you come up with 2400.That is the lest we can build a custom saddle.My material costs are more like $1100,using the same 33% materials,33% labor,and 33% profit we arrive at 3300 selling price of a base priced saddle.Any busnessman will tell you you have to make atleast 33% to keep the doors open.I build some Wholsale stuff and the seller gets the profit keeping the price the same.

Good thread.

Steve

[colttrainer]

I would like to clarify something. I agreed with a staement that a saddle could be custom made for X amount of dollars, I will still say that. But before you all come unglued, you get what you pay for. Let me add that I do not build a saddle for that price! I have to this point only built my own & I have lots to learn about the finer points of leather work. I do not & will not under cut prices just so I can build saddles. My base price is $3000.00, that may be lower than some but I believe that it is still higher than some, but being new I can not be at the top end of the scale, I do need to work for less at this time & as quaility improves wages will improve. I will continue working leather refining my skills on projects, building saddles for myself, untill I reach a level that people can justify spending that kind of cash on my product.

Keith if my wife was not bring a $100,000 a year in I would be more then happy to learn the trade in your shop.

Al

Edited March 5, 2010 by colttrainer

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Ok, I agree wholeheartedly with Keith and shelly and all the others. I have listed my prices before so I won't go into that , suffice it to say that I don't feel I get what I should, but; in Michigan with this economy, you are lucky to get anything. Even so, I will not lower my prices any more than I already have, and if things ever get better and people here starte to spend money again, they will go up expotentially. In the mean time, on the factory note, I have repaired many saddles that were practically new factory saddles because they did not stay together, due to materials, or workmanship, or both. When I repair, I charge $35 per hour labor, plus materials, I am retired and my shop is here at the house so my overhead is not to bad. A lot of people could have had a "good ranch saddle made" for what they have in repairs on these factory saddles. I had a guy come in not too long ago with his $3,500 "custom made" Circle Y, cutting saddle that was a year old with the horn cap loose and the stitches popped out. The problem was that they didn't use a filler sandwiched in between the top and bottom cover that was "permantly" attached to the horn by either screws or tacks. They just glued them to the horn! He didn't want to go through the expense of sending it back to have them fix it so he paid me 3.5 hrs work plus $15 in materials. When I asked him how he got a custom made saddle from circle y and how long it took he said (get this) he said he flew down there to the factory, he ordered the saddle with all the things he wanted on it, like what style tooling, color, type and size of seat, type of horn, stirrups and so on, and they made it right there while he waited and took a tour of the place and had lunch, (they had all the parts already there cut dyed and so on, all they had to do was assemble it). I am guessing that he had probably another $1,000 to $1,200 in that trip, if he was only there a day. If you add that up he now had over $4,800 in that "Custom Made" saddle. No matter how you slice it, the only way to get a custom made saddle is to have it done by someone who is not just looking to get into your pocket book, but; is really following the old fashioned method of saddle making and using lots of elbow grease in the process! Oh by the way, after cutting for a couple years, this guy quit it because it was too expensive! Go figure!

Bondo Bob

[Weazer]

Well, since I started this thread for my own selfish reasons, I thought I would chime in. The internet is truly a marvelous tool. I'm no saddle maker. In the grand scheme of things my input really doesn't matter. I'm just a consumer. I'm the person who needs to be convinced that what I'm buying is worth its price. I initially asked for advise concerning having a custom made saddle constructed for a price of $1500.00 to $2000.00. I was hoping that someone would say "I'll make you a saddle in that price range." Instead, I was told by everyone that it could not be done at that price, but for a few hundred dollars more, I could find one. I wasn't asking for a handmade saddle made solely by the individual saddle maker for that price. I knew a saddle made in that manner would be very expensive and quite frankly one that I would tend to baby. What I was looking for was someone who would work with me to build a saddle that would fit my horse and I, and have all the necessary bells and whistles to accomplish the job. Simply, a good ranch saddle made to order. What I was looking for was an up and coming saddle maker who was hungry for business. After reading this thread, it appears that most of you are very experienced and still make saddles individually (handmade), and it should be reflected in the price (I assume someone buys your saddles). I guess that if you have a saddle shop and employ others to help you build saddles you can't honestly say you made it. You can most certainly say that you managed its production, place your name upon it, and sell it as a custom made saddle (please correct me if I am wrong). And that was the type of saddle and saddle maker I was looking for.

I didn't find Jeremy Snead on this website, I found him through a google search for ranch saddles. So, for my fellow consumers, this is what I decided to spend my money on. Mr. Snead is making the saddle with his own two hands and the hands of his employees. It is being made on a premium saddle tree made by Randy at Timberline. It's more expensive than his other trees, $350.00 to $400.00 with shipping, but Randy makes it himself with the assistance of machinery. Randy sent me the rough tree to try on my horse before he covered it with rawhide. It was a perfect fit. Mr. Snead had walked me through the measuring process prior to this through the use of photos and cell phones to insure a good fit. Neither of these two individuals knew each other prior to this exchange. My saddle will be made with top grade leather from Wickett and Craig, the very best wool fleece lining and Bork hardware, turned and braided fenders and just the right amount of hand tooling for a using saddle. I don't know what the final price will be, however, when it is finished, I will let everyone know and post photos. Both Randy and Mr. Snead (Jeremy) have been a pleasure to deal with....straight forward and honest.

[BOB BRENNER]

Weazer,

Glad you and Jeremy were able to strike a deal. Will not argue with your choice of Randy at Timberline, Wickett & Craig leather , Bork hardware, etc. All good choices.

I do take your comments in your latest post as a personal affront to me and the other saddle makers who did not try to sell you a saddle, but tried to give you a wide span of good advice. You gave the impression that we were trying to rip you off with our prices. I will correct you: 95+% of all saddle makers work in individual shops and make their saddles by themselves from start to finish. When their name is on the saddle he or she made it.

Given the information you supplied; Jeremy’s costs for your saddle will be $1,100.00 or more. He is going to build you a saddle at or below the individual poverty rate for the U.S., that is his choice. If you expect us to work at the poverty rate so you can get what you want or need then maybe as taxpayers we should demand that you as a Federal employee work at the minium wage!!!

Respectfully,

Bob

[Shelly]

Weazer,

Glad you and Jeremy were able to strike a deal. Will not argue with your choice of Randy at Timberline, Wickett & Craig leather , Bork hardware, etc. All good choices.

I do take your comments in your latest post as a personal affront to me and the other saddle makers who did not try to sell you a saddle, but tried to give you a wide span of good advice. You gave the impression that we were trying to rip you off with our prices. I will correct you: 95+% of all saddle makers work in individual shops and make their saddles by themselves from start to finish. When their name is on the saddle he or she made it.

Given the information you supplied; Jeremy's costs for your saddle will be $1,100.00 or more. He is going to build you a saddle at or below the individual poverty rate for the U.S., that is his choice. If you expect us to work at the poverty rate so you can get what you want or need then maybe as taxpayers we should demand that you as a Federal employee work at the minium wage!!!

Respectfully,

Bob

Ouch!! But very well said!!! And I don't think we are making very good journeyman's wages with what we all are charging right now, either!! Get an electrician, plumber, etc out to do some work sometime...

[Traveller]

Another mere consumer chiming in here... I believe you good saddle makers are charging a fair price for an excellent product. I have no trouble with people buying saddles that fit their budgets but hope there will always be enough consumers out there to keep you folks in business.

[Weazer]

Bob,

Thanks for the information! I went to the ASMA site and found it to be most informative. I truly had no idea that this organization existed. It was not my intention to offend you or anyone else. I do not expect saddle makers to work for minimum wage. I expect that they are smart enough to make a profit that supports their lifestyle. If they can't, I assume they supplement their income through other employment or other horse related skills. My intention was to become an informed consumer before I made my next purchase. I had no idea custom made saddle prices were such a sensitive topic within your profession. Once again, I would like to thank all those who provided me with advice and I hope all of you are successful.

My intention concerning my last post was to communicate to other consumers that there is at least one saddle maker who at this point in his career will make a custom saddle with high quality material at the upper end of production saddle prices. There are others listed within this thread in the mid $2,000.00 range as well as these additional saddle makers I found: cowcampsupply.com made by Sparky Wallace with a base of $2200, smithleatherandsaddlery.com well equipped with a base of $2495, Paul Custom Saddlery at ranchhorseoutfitters.com with a base of $2100, sugarcreeksaddlery.com with a base of $2000, and 246ranch.net using Quality Mfg. trees with a base of $2495. All of which are at or below the ASMA poverty price index!

Now I don't want to start a war either, however, in the spirit of discussion, I will address your last comment. Since you have assumed the role as spokesperson for...as you put it...you and the other saddle makers who did not try to sell me a saddle...these are my personal feelings on the matter. What I do for a living has absolutely no bearing on this topic. I can't speak for the other Federal law enforcement officers who you feel should be paid minimum wage, but I love my profession and I'm good at it. You are a tax payer and I do in fact work for you. I find it interesting that an Executive Director of the ASMA finds it necessary to attack a public servant in a public forum over his attempt to educate himself and others to simply "buy a saddle". If I must, I will work for minimum wage again. In this day and age, If you have a job and are blessed with the ability to work at something you truly enjoy doing you simply make it work. So, lobby your state representative or run for office yourself and make it happen if that is truly how you feel. I will simply leave the last word for you.

Respectfully Submitted

Weazer

[jwwright]

Weazer..........................I understand where you are coming from as a saddle buyer. There is a lot of confusion out there among the potential saddle buying public, and I will address here what I think is one of the main contributors to that confusion...................and the source of much concern among true shop made, hand made saddle makers on this price subject.

What you and many other potential saddle buyers may not realize is this: There are a substantial number of what I will call "saddle production contractors / factories" somewhat scattered about the country, but with a high concentration of them in Texas, and specifically North East Texas. They produce saddles for many different "name brand" saddle businesses.........including quite a few who have in their name "so and so custom" and "handmade". You can walk in to some of these (saddle production contractors) shops, and see many different "maker" stamps that they put on saddles, depending upon which "maker" ordered the saddle. Some of the "so and so custom handmade" saddle businesses that place contracts with these "contractors" don't even have a shop of any kind of their own, nor have ever made a saddle. There are also quite a few saddle businesses with "so and so custom handmade" type names, that do have a shop of their own, but they employ others (mostly good folks of hispanic nature) to build the saddles.

As I , and others see it, here is the problem with the above . There exists some of these "so and so handmade saddlery" proprietors who lead folks to believe that they have a shop, and either they or their employees build the saddles , when in fact they do not. They have no saddle production shop, and simply take orders, place them with a "production / contractor" , have their maker stamp put on them, deliver the saddle and collect the funds. There are also other proprietors who have a shop, employ the good hispanic folks to make them, but lead folks to believe that they are a small handmade saddle shop, where they themselves actually build saddles. There is quite a bit of deception going on sometimes, either by what they do or don't say.

Some of the good hispanic folks working in the various types of shops I've mentioned are very talented, hard working people, but are taken advantage of and paid next to nothing, so the saddle business proprietor can sell an apparently low priced saddle and make a good profit for themselves. I had the proprietor of one such business tell me that he paid the folks building saddles around $7 -8 per hour........but, he had made an exception just that week and was paying one saddle maker $10 per hour (the most he said he had ever paid anyone), because this feller could build one complete saddle per day. That conversation was about 3 years ago, and I don't suppose much has changed.

Secifically Weazer, I have personal knowledge of a few of the saddle businesses that you mentioned. I will only comment on one..........Bill Howe (246 ranch saddlery) is a true handmade saddle maker, and builds a very well made saddle. I have not visited with him in a couple years, but it is my understanding that he is retired, and currently building about one saddle per month because he enjoys it, and to supplement his retirement.

I truly hope that your saddle buying journey has lead to a decision that will provide you with a saddle that enjoy for a long time.

JW

[cowgirlrae]

I appreciate that explanantion, for several years I worked in a tack and saddle western store, we sold TexTan, Circle Y Crates, we sold the high mid and bottom end including some synthetics, and a few production saddles from a local saddle maker. I learned how to do basic repair and lots about the saddle industry.

Daily, folks would come in and scoff at the 'factory' saddles and be wanting a 'hand made' saddle, we then explained that every saddle was 'hand made' even in a factory they are hand made, even nylon and plastic saddles are hand made.... there is no machine that makes a saddle. A little education was frequently necessary.

Quite frankly I would have bought (and have ) the high end circle Y and Textan long before I would have even considered the "hand made" rigs made by the local guy. His workmanship and hardware simply were not as good, and having something fully tooled and nicely finished was out of the question. He was no more than a parts hanger.

But we sold a bunch of the local guys saddles too because he made people believe that because he cut and hung the parts they were "better" handmade you know, crafted and custom....... not churned out of a factory..... bah

Thank you for saying it well

[hidepounder]

Just prior to reading this thread I made a post in another thread where I commented on the difficulty for new enthusiasts to become educated about their horses and the equipment they need to own in order to have a safe positive experience. The source of education all too often comes from the delivery driver for the local tack/feed store....who just happens to be filling in for the gal who normally runs the sales floor, and who by the way, was taught by the previous delivery driver. This is what all too many people are exposed to and so it's easy to understand how they could be so mis-informed. One can't just run down to the local saddle shop anymore and get educated because custom shops just don't exist much anymore!

I can tell you from personal experience that there is absolutely no way to know what goes into (more likely what doesn't go into) a contracted production saddle. My first one came apart in the middle of the short round in a roping and I found myself sitting in the middle of the arena wondering what in the hell just happened!! I should have known better though...when I was a young man one of my first jobs as a tooler was in a shop that contracted Billy Cook roping saddles. The saddlemakers (no previous experience required) used to have races to see who could complete certain operations faster...like building horn caps on the bench, soaking them and pulling them on...loser buys the beer. When they were finished the saddles where shipped back to Texas and were sold as custom made Billy Cooks. I would rather become a near sighted Matador than dally on one of those saddles!

Of course that was a very long long time ago, but I believe that over the years saddle contractors, succumbing to the pressures of competition, have greatly refined their skills in producing junk. It's all just plain depressing! I can report, however, that the delivery drivers are doing a bang up job these days! Just try to convince the owner of a new Crates that he hasn't just bought one of the highest quality saddles on the market! And what's worse is when the new guy gets to meet others who share his new found passion, he is completely reassured because his new found friends were taught by the first delivery driver!!!!!!

Don't get me wrong.....I'm not saying that there is not a place for production saddles...there is....and I'm still roping on one!!!! The problem is that the general public has nowhere to go to learn the difference between custom and production saddles and therefore cannot make an informed decision. There may be very good reasons why someone would be willing to build a custom saddle for the price of a production saddle, but I would sure want to understand the circumstances. Things cost what they cost! I just can't help being suspicious when offered a new Corvette for the price of an Accord! Ya know....sometimes when it's just to good to be true.....

Okay, I've carried on long enough. I'm probably just a little over sensative from trying to explain the difference between one of my belts and an embossed one from China! I lose that argument every time!

Bobby

[Shelly]

Just prior to reading this thread I made a post in another thread where I commented on the difficulty for new enthusiasts to become educated about their horses and the equipment they need to own in order to have a safe positive experience. The source of education all too often comes from the delivery driver for the local tack/feed store....who just happens to be filling in for the gal who normally runs the sales floor, and who by the way, was taught by the previous delivery driver. This is what all too many people are exposed to and so it's easy to understand how they could be so mis-informed. One can't just run down to the local saddle shop anymore and get educated because custom shops just don't exist much anymore!

I can tell you from personal experience that there is absolutely no way to know what goes into (more likely what doesn't go into) a contracted production saddle. My first one came apart in the middle of the short round in a roping and I found myself sitting in the middle of the arena wondering what in the hell just happened!! I should have known better though...when I was a young man one of my first jobs as a tooler was in a shop that contracted Billy Cook roping saddles. The saddlemakers (no previous experience required) used to have races to see who could complete certain operations faster...like building horn caps on the bench, soaking them and pulling them on...loser buys the beer. When they were finished the saddles where shipped back to Texas and were sold as custom made Billy Cooks. I would rather become a near sighted Matador than dally on one of those saddles!

Of course that was a very long long time ago, but I believe that over the years saddle contractors, succumbing to the pressures of competition, have greatly refined their skills in producing junk. It's all just plain depressing! I can report, however, that the delivery drivers are doing a bang up job these days! Just try to convince the owner of a new Crates that he hasn't just bought one of the highest quality saddles on the market! And what's worse is when the new guy gets to meet others who share his new found passion, he is completely reassured because his new found friends were taught by the first delivery driver!!!!!!

Don't get me wrong.....I'm not saying that there is not a place for production saddles...there is....and I'm still roping on one!!!! The problem is that the general public has nowhere to go to learn the difference between custom and production saddles and therefore cannot make an informed decision. There may be very good reasons why someone would be willing to build a custom saddle for the price of a production saddle, but I would sure want to understand the circumstances. Things cost what they cost! I just can't help being suspicious when offered a new Corvette for the price of an Accord! Ya know....sometimes when it's just to good to be true.....

Okay, I've carried on long enough. I'm probably just a little over sensative from trying to explain the difference between one of my belts and an embossed one from China! I lose that argument every time!

Bobby

Awe, I love ya, Bob! Great read - I am sure you get some of those same 'looks' I get when trying to explain the difference...no one home! Some just never do learn to appreciate or 'see' the things that make it what it is...I've tried to spot those that my gut tells me that no amount of explanation will be necessary because it's wasted breath!

[joe59]

Shelly, Bobby,

It seems that I am chasing you around the leatherworker site. I agree with both of your comments. I used to tear myself apart by becoming involved with justifying my prices. I realize that in this business that there are certain jobs I would rather not do, (srtap work and belts jump to mind) but that goes with the territory. I do this work to get my name and reputation out and about. I would like my costomers to come to me because they want ME to build their saddle. If you want me to do the job, this is what it will cost. If time permits, I try to build a "spec" saddle to have on hand. Sometimes the spec saddle will sell a custom one.

On this topic, there are posts that compare saddles to cars. I go a few steps farther. When I was doing a repair and my knife "slipped" I cut my hand almost to the bone. There was some serious bleeding and tendon damage. I did not haggle with the Doctor about price. He put my hand back together and I paid the bill. I use my Vet, not because he is the cheapest, but because he is darn good at what he does. The tree maker I use may or may not be the cheapest, I do not know or care. We have an excellent working relationship and more importantly, he stands behind his work.

Recently, I have seen warning lables on saddles. Is this because they are falling apart and the company is playing CYA? I believe that most people are asking the wrong question. Instead of asking "Why do these saddlemakers charge so much?" they should ask "Why is this saddle so cheap?". How a saddle is made should be more important than how much it costs. As a rule, the best saddle makers are the ones who have spent time in a saddle.

Enough said.

JOE

[Jeremy Stead]

Hi Everyone,

I came back here to check on all of the posts and see what's happening when it comes to my name.

One thing I don't understand is this poverty level , I don't watch my leather dry, I work on another saddle after I for instance wrap a wet swell.

Or when have two orders back to back with the same skirts I cut them.

I always cut extra parts like stirrup leather, gullets, etc, So I will be ready for the next order.

I'm inexpensive and doing what I love, and not poor.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Jeremy Stead

[Huntet02]

Wow I should have read this before buying my Wade production saddle from Teskeys .........later being bucked off for what I thought to be a BAD prod saddle but the good folks on here educated me better....:head_hurts_kr:in reading this I learned all my lessons a year after this thread.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Huntet02