1911 Holster Question

[particle]

I have been asked to make two holsters - black, and brown - for a 3" Kimber 1911 with Crimson Trace laser grips. The only 1911 I have is my Dan Wesson CBOB 4.25" (Commander), and I don't see any 3" blue guns.

Anyone have any suggestions on how to produce these two holsters for this gentleman?

[Denster]

I have been asked to make two holsters - black, and brown - for a 3" Kimber 1911 with Crimson Trace laser grips. The only 1911 I have is my Dan Wesson CBOB 4.25" (Commander), and I don't see any 3" blue guns.

Anyone have any suggestions on how to produce these two holsters for this gentleman?

As long as they are open bottom holsters you can use your Wesson. The 3" barrel guns terminate about 1/8" forward of where the side of the slide starts to curve up on your Wesson. Just trim your pattern to that length and use your Wesson with the excess sticking out the bottom to form. The CT grips won't be in the road of anything so that is not a problem.

[dickf]

I could be wrong, but I don't think the frame size is the same. I would decline until I had the proper gun or mold to do it right.

[gundy]

I could be wrong, but I don't think the frame size is the same. I would decline until I had the proper gun or mold to do it right.

the frame on a 1911 is the same, some may have a shorter grip and/or slide but niether of those should affect the use of his current 1911 blue gun. if you do as denster says you will be fine. are these to be iwb or owb? is he going to carry c&l or hammer down? thumb break? those could (minutely)affect teh use of the blue gun(ie safety position)

[Bronson]

If you look at the specs from the respective manufacturer websites it appears that the Kimber may be nearly 1/4" thinner than the CBOB. I say "may" because the Kimber specs list it as the frame width and the Dan Wesson specs just list "width" so I'm thinking their dimension is the slide.

http://www.kimberamerica.com/products/pistols/crimson_carry/Ultra_Crimson_Carry/

http://cz-usa.com/products/view/dan-wesson-commander-classic-bobtail/

Bronson

[Denster]

If you look at the specs from the respective manufacturer websites it appears that the Kimber may be nearly 1/4" thinner than the CBOB. I say "may" because the Kimber specs list it as the frame width and the Dan Wesson specs just list "width" so I'm thinking their dimension is the slide.

http://www.kimberame..._Crimson_Carry/

http://cz-usa.com/pr...lassic-bobtail/

Bronson

Those measurements are at the widest part of the gun in the area of the thumb safety. In the area of the slide ,frame ie: what goes in the holster they are essentially the same.

[dickf]

Those measurements are at the widest part of the gun in the area of the thumb safety. In the area of the slide ,frame ie: what goes in the holster they are essentially the same.

The safety area isn't an area you want to fool around with on a cocked and locked holster, in my opinion. Get the right mold is still my advice.

[particle]

Thanks guys - I appreciate the info. I don't actually have a blue gun for a 1911 - I have an actual Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail (CBOB) with a 4.25" barrel. I'll have to look at some photos and compare the safeties of the Kimber with my DW. I thought that laser grips bulged out at the top, but I haven't researched that yet.

Denter - that's good info with the measurements.

For reference, he asked me to make a holster just like this one that I recently made, but for his 3" gun.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

the frame on a 1911 is the same, some may have a shorter grip and/or slide but niether of those should affect the use of his current 1911 blue gun. if you do as denster says you will be fine. are these to be iwb or owb? is he going to carry c&l or hammer down? thumb break? those could (minutely)affect teh use of the blue gun(ie safety position)

Actually, the dust cover of several 1911's are unique to their size and place of manufacture. Case in point, a 3" Springfield Micro has a dust cover that is 1/4" shorter than a Colt Commander, which is about 1/4" shorter than a full sized 5" Govt. model. Different manufacturers also use different dimensions on their dust covers, so all dummy guns are not good for all actual pistols. Case in point, a holster molded on a Springfield dummy may be loose on a Colt series 80.

[Lobo]

Looking at your holster design, I notice that the grips are partially covered by the holster. The CT Laser Grip places the laser module on the right side grip panel at the upper right (just beneath the slide), so you will need to accomodate that when fitting your holster. The Crimson Trace website has photos of their laser grips on a 1911-style pistol that will help you plan that aspect of the job.

Your pancake design (with adjustment for overall pistol length) should otherwise accomodate the 3" guns when formed on your CBOB. You won't be able to complete the detailed boning at the forward end of the slide, as you have on your CBOB holster. Dealing with the laser module will be the only real obstacle to overcome.

The safety area isn't an area you want to fool around with on a cocked and locked holster, in my opinion. Get the right mold is still my advice.

Dickf: A quick look at the holster design illustrated shows that the thumb safety area of the pistol is well clear of the leather. There will be no contact involved.

[dickf]

Dickf: A quick look at the holster design illustrated shows that the thumb safety area of the pistol is well clear of the leather. There will be no contact involved.

I completely disagree. A quick look clearly shows that there is a sweat guard on this piece and that the thumb safety is boned into the leather.

This is a rear photo of his same holster, which is exatcly what you'd expect to see from looking at the first one.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

dickf is correct, the safety is completely in contact with leather.

There is a real liability to holster makers, in my opinion, in using a non-cocked and locked dummy to form a 1911 holster. An uncocked 1911 can't change it's safety position because the safety is mechanically locked in place, so it doesn't matter what holster it is used in; it can't change its existing condition. The worst thing that happens using an uncocked 1911 in a holster that is made for cocked and locked carry is that the sweat shield won't fit right. If the opposite is done (using a C&L 1911 in an holster molded off of an uncocked dummy gun), there is a good chance of the holster disengaging the safety due to the tension from the sweat shield and the give in the safety. I used to carry c&l pistols exclusively, and I have seen this happen. In the end, it still comes down to the user's gun handling discipline, but you know how that goes........

[Denster]

dickf is correct, the safety is completely in contact with leather.

There is a real liability to holster makers, in my opinion, in using a non-cocked and locked dummy to form a 1911 holster. An uncocked 1911 can't change it's safety position because the safety is mechanically locked in place, so it doesn't matter what holster it is used in; it can't change its existing condition. The worst thing that happens using an uncocked 1911 in a holster that is made for cocked and locked carry is that the sweat shield won't fit right. If the opposite is done (using a C&L 1911 in an holster molded off of an uncocked dummy gun), there is a good chance of the holster disengaging the safety due to the tension from the sweat shield and the give in the safety. I used to carry c&l pistols exclusively, and I have seen this happen. In the end, it still comes down to the user's gun handling discipline, but you know how that goes........

Jeff makes a point. If you must mold the sweat shield always do it in the cocked and locked position. It is possible to disengage the safety with it molded in the hammer down position. Unlikely but possible. It is more likely to wipe off a safety when reholstering by contact with the edge of the sweat shield. Proper gun handling would dictate you recheck the safety after holstering. As to the length of the dust cover, going from the slightly longer CBOB to the Kimber there is not enough difference to make a difference.

Lobo cought something I didn't notice. Particles design covers the area of the right grip were the CT laser bulges that would have to be accomodated.

Following Dickf's logic you would have to have every model of gun with every possible combination of thumb safety and slide release on the market. While having more guns is good this is somewhat unrealistic. In this case anyway the thumb safety on the CBOB is wider than the Kimber so as long as it is molded in the CL position it is not something to be concerned with.

Particle's original question was could he use his CBOB for the mold for the Kimber. Yes with some slight accomodations he can and have a nice product.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Following Dickf's logic you would have to have every model of gun with every possible combination of thumb safety and slide release on the market. While having more guns is good this is somewhat unrealistic. In this case anyway the thumb safety on the CBOB is wider than the Kimber so as long as it is molded in the CL position it is not something to be concerned with.

Particle's original question was could he use his CBOB for the mold for the Kimber. Yes with some slight accomodations he can and have a nice product.

I didn't read dickf's comment as a recommendation that you have to have every combination of gun/safety out there. I read it more as cautionary advice, which I personally agree with.

It is important to understand that the fit and compatibility of a holster are largely due to the dummy gun used, but they also have a lot to do with the holster's design and construction method as well. That is one of the big reasons why you will get so much conflicting advice from different holster makers concerning the compatibility of dummy guns with the real thing. The way that one maker builds holsters, any 1911 will fit close enough that he is satisfied. I know there are some makers that only have four dummy guns to do all of their 1911 holsters, and that works just fine for them. Due to my construction methods and fitment standards, I actually have over a dozen separate 1911 dummy guns, and I only accept orders for specific models based on what dummy guns I possess.

Concerning the OP's original question, I would borrow the gun to make the holsters, or contact Duncans to see what models they have that include a CTG. If neither of those options are a possibility, I wouldn't be afraid to tell the customer "nope, can't do it" either. I think it is better to turn a job down than to do one half-assed becasue you aren't sure of the dimensions.

[Denster]

The original poster asked a simple question. Could he use his CBOB as a mold to make holsters for the Kimber Micro. The simple answer is yes he can. Looking at his holsters they do not appear to be half assed although he is a new maker. What he makes might not be up to Jeff's or Dickf's standards but I would guess they will be serviceable. It would be nice if he had access to the customer's gun but from reading his post I doubt that is likely. Lobo pointed to the only real problem with the current design and the laser grip which is easily accomodated for.

Let's not get this way off topic with a my ideas are better than yours feud.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Well, to simplify my answer to the OP's original question: You could, but you SHOULDN'T.

Nowhere have I implied in any way that Particle's work is half-assed. I did imply that I would rather turn a customer down than to build a holster that may or may not fit right because I can't get access to the pistol to take measurements (which I would personally consider half-assed).

I have no intention of starting a feud with anyone over ideas. I don't care if everyone or no one agrees with me, as long as I am doing things to my own standards and to my satisfaction. I gave Particle advice based on my standards. He is welcome, as is anyone who frequents this forum, to look at the body of work that I have presented here, the history of my posts, and the reviews of my products, and surmise for himself whether to discount my advice or not.

Standards are subjective, but the whole reason we [should be] posting here is to learn how to improve our work and raise our standards. I am growing tired of threads where people are simply posting looking for praise or validation, and getting their feelings hurt if somebody has some constructive criticism for them or asks a simple question that makes them feel threatened. If they want everyone to tell them what a good job they did, post in the show off section. If they are looking to improve their work or get questions answered and advice given, post here. If anyone gets their feelings hurt based on technical advice, I would suggest that they take a step back and consider why they are posting in the first place.

[dickf]

I wasn't going to reply to this, but I will simply because my name was mentioned and I feel like I was called out.

I think Particle's work looks great, especially considering that his holster count is in the single digits. I don't see anything except maybe a slightly more scalloped trigger area that I would change from his pattern. With that said, all of my advice (which is free) has been about safety - not construction methods or being critical of anyone's work. Jeff gives good advice (also free) that I think lots of rookie and experienced holstermakers alike don't know or forget sometimes: above everything, the holster must be safe. Ultimately, Particle will do what he thinks is the best thing for his customer.

I think we all agree with this statement:

If you must mold the sweat shield always do it inthe cocked and locked position. It is possible to disengage the safetywith it molded in the hammer down position.

So it goes without saying, that if the safeties are oriented too differently between guns, the same thing could happen. This is the only point I was trying to make.

Good luck!

[particle]

Gentlemen, thank you all for your responses. I am going to turn down the job and tell him I am not currently equipped to make holsters for 3" guns. My initial goal was to make holsters specifically designed to fit my make/model gun. This way I didn't have to get into intricacies of different manufacturers and accessories. Perhaps when I get more experienced I can venture out into the blue-gun arena.

I do thank everyone for their input - it is sincerely appreciated.

dickf - I would be interested in hearing more about your comment about scalloping the trigger area. If you prefer to PM me, I understand.

And for clarification, I am only making my holsters Cocked & Locked - never really even considered building one with the safety disengaged.

[Lobo]

I completely disagree. A quick look clearly shows that there is a sweat guard on this piece and that the thumb safety is boned into the leather.

This is a rear photo of his same holster, which is exatcly what you'd expect to see from looking at the first one.

You are correct, sir. I missed the slide shield on my first observation of the photos. My apologies for having misspoken.

[MDL]

Particle,

I have a 3" Kimber 1911 Ultra Raptor dummy from Duncan, but it does not have laser grips. You are welcome to use it if you like.

Dan.

[particle]

Thanks for the offer Dan - I really appreciate it. I have already contacted the potential buyer and let him know I was not currently equipped to build his order. Thanks for the lead on Duncan though - I had not stumbled across their dummies yet.

[MDL]

Thanks for the offer Dan - I really appreciate it. I have already contacted the potential buyer and let him know I was not currently equipped to build his order. Thanks for the lead on Duncan though - I had not stumbled across their dummies yet.

Your welcome,

The Duncan dummies are cast and are kind of rough, but they seem to have a lot of dummies Blue Gun does not offer. I only have the Kimber because Blue Gun does not make it. Blue Gun will make any dummy you like for $300.00 and the use of your weapon for a few weeks!

Dan.