New Fenders/leathers-Color Match And Clean Up

[Newfman]

Hey folks,

Tried to 'search' for some answers and found everything except the things i was searching for. Haven't found the secret for the search tool on this site.

Anyway, I finally found a hand made Wade saddle that I like and that appears to fit my horse, (so far). This saddle was made by Bob Beecher of Outwest Saddlery in Pagose Springs. It is a custom built, oil finished saddle built in 2004 and delivered in 2005. It has found its way to me and I really like everything about it except: 1) I have to figure out how to give it a good clean up, and 2) The woman that it was built for evidently had some serious legs! Whoda' thunk. Yup, I can put my feet flat in the stirrup sort of, but cannot put any weight down while seated. The leathers can't be shortened anymore by anymeans, because the fenders are too long.

I talked to Bob on the phone and he will make a new set of fenders and leathers, and rough-out will be the most economical at this time. I can make a tooled set as my first "real" project, once I get to the point that I am ready to start working leather. The color difference is going to be night and day. I understand that I can put the leathers and fenders out in the sun to darken them some. Do you oil them first, or does it matter? Any other reccomendations for getting a better match? Does leather reach a point that it is basically done darkening so that the newer leather may catch up?

I am attaching photos. I would like to freshen up the seat a little and remove some stains, but, it is a working saddle and I think it has character. It needs a definite clean-up. Some of the tooling is caked with dirt. My plan is to scrub it with Murphys oil soap and some light brushes. I can do it in the basement, as it is winter here. Do you need to rinse it with a hose? Just a clean damp sponge and fresh water? or what? Being winter in Maine, the whole hose thing isn't really practical. My plan was to use olive oil on it for the finish, is that ok? What about the roughout seat? Does it get the same treatment? Should I wait until the saddle is completely dry?

I'm wondering if we may someday get a sticky thread on saddle leather care, cleaning, rejeuvinating for both tooled and rough out leather. I know these things have been answered, but when I search things like 'cleaning leather' I get links to "nice clean lines on that saddle Bob!" And a hundred variations. I have tried a variety of search specs. So, sorry for having to bug you on this.

I plan to hold on to the original leathers in case I sell the saddle someday, I will be able to make it all original.

thanks for the help.

[AndyKnight]

You have a lot of stirrup leather that can be taken up below those fenders. The botom fold where the strirrup hangs should only be maybe 2 inches belowthe fender. Not sure if that will make it work for you or if you already adjusted that. Otherwise you could sure rebuild those to where any cuts/adjustments would be hidden.

[AndyKnight]

You would have to shorten the end where the buckle is riveted in. Shorten to as little as 10-11"

[Newfman]

Sorry, that picture is a little misleading. There is a strap that goes around the stirrup leather and I have that removed. the leather makes a turn after it goes through the stirrup, and that turns the stirrup out. If I raise the stirrup any higher by adding holes for the buckle, I would not be able to twist the leather and certainly would not be able to put the strap back on. I will try to get a photo tomorrow. To tired now from work. The other issue is the fender is pretty much right up to the bars, so, there is no room on that end either.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Newfman

[AndyKnight]

Sorry, that picture is a little misleading. There is a strap that goes around the stirrup leather and I have that removed. the leather makes a turn after it goes through the stirrup, and that turns the stirrup out. If I raise the stirrup any higher by adding holes for the buckle, I would not be able to twist the leather and certainly would not be able to put the strap back on. I will try to get a photo tomorrow. To tired now from work. The other issue is the fender is pretty much right up to the bars, so, there is no room on that end either.

You would have to rework the twist , After shortentening the end where the buckle is .and reattaching the buckle you would have to soak and then retwist allowing them to dry in the correct position. I am guessing by the pic that you would probably gain 2-3 " for shorter inseam without shortening the fender.

Not sure if that explains it or not..... .

Andy

Edited February 27, 2010 by AndyKnight

[Newfman]

The picture is certainly worth a thousand words. How long would you soak it for, and I assume that it won't stain it. (?) So, just soak the ends i am working or is it better to remove and do the whole thing? Sounds like a stupid question, but I don't want to have a little color shift where the dry-v-soaked sections are.

I need to investigate proper rivets, tool and removal of old and reinstallation of new rivets. Hmmm, grind them with a dremel, or drill them?

I have a feeling my wife will be just shy of being able to use this saddle. She will likely be where I am now. We'll see.

Out of curiosity, just how long are "standard" fenders, generally speaking. As in, for people that aren't requesting extra long. Or is every fender made per saddle per person and nobody uses a pattern for them?

[RWB]

The picture is certainly worth a thousand words. How long would you soak it for, and I assume that it won't stain it. (?) So, just soak the ends i am working or is it better to remove and do the whole thing? Sounds like a stupid question, but I don't want to have a little color shift where the dry-v-soaked sections are.

I need to investigate proper rivets, tool and removal of old and reinstallation of new rivets. Hmmm, grind them with a dremel, or drill them?

I have a feeling my wife will be just shy of being able to use this saddle. She will likely be where I am now. We'll see.

Out of curiosity, just how long are "standard" fenders, generally speaking. As in, for people that aren't requesting extra long. Or is every fender made per saddle per person and nobody uses a pattern for them?

You won't have to soak the leather to long. Just so it's pliable. If it's not enough put a little more water to it. I would just soak what you need to twist, and not be to bothered about a color change. Even if you do get a little bit of a water mark (which sometimes happens) your never going to see it. Especially if you are going to clean and oil this saddle afterwards.

You want a #9 copper rivet with burrs. I either grind out the old rivets or drill them out, whatever works. You will also need a rivet setter. Bob Douglas sells them. Or you might be able to go to your local Tandy store and buy both the rivets and the setter.

Fenders and stirrups leathers run all different lengths. Most custom saddle makes take an inseam measurement. If I build a saddle just to sell and not for a custom order, I try to pair the length of the fenders and stirrup leathers with the length of the seat. A 14" seat typically won't fit a 40" inseam. Hope that helps

Ross Brunk

Edited February 27, 2010 by RWB

[AndyKnight]

The picture is certainly worth a thousand words. How long would you soak it for, and I assume that it won't stain it. (?) So, just soak the ends i am working or is it better to remove and do the whole thing? Sounds like a stupid question, but I don't want to have a little color shift where the dry-v-soaked sections are.

I need to investigate proper rivets, tool and removal of old and reinstallation of new rivets. Hmmm, grind them with a dremel, or drill them?

I have a feeling my wife will be just shy of being able to use this saddle. She will likely be where I am now. We'll see.

Out of curiosity, just how long are "standard" fenders, generally speaking. As in, for people that aren't requesting extra long. Or is every fender made per saddle per person and nobody uses a pattern for them?

I build for 5'8"- 5'6" 17" 5'8" -5'10" 18" These will vary somwhat and are approx. and will depend on inseam and riding style. If you soak everything below the fender you will find it the easiest and will probably not get a noticeable water mark. Reoil the whole saddle when done. It may take a while ( half hour or so) to get the leather wet enough . It will depend on the oill content in the leather.

You can usually drill the rivets out. although if I am cutting off the leather where it is riveted I will grind them of .

[Newfman]

Thanks, i will have to order those. Being in Maine, not a lot of saddle or leather shops around. Well, other than english tack supplies.

I just tried to shoot some close-ups of the stirrup leather with and without the hobble, and the camera just died. Like dead dead, not battery dead. CRAP!

I will work on the Stirrup end first and see how that goes, if it works out, I will order the rivets etc.

Thanks for the info.

Dennis

[Newfman]

I am 5'8 and 1/2" (gotta add the half) with a 30" inseam. the saddle is a 15 1/2" seat. The full length of the fenders are 20". Add 6.5 inches from the top of the fender (base of the bar) to the mid-line of the seat and that leaves only 3.5 inches for the stirrup leather at the base of the fender to turn and the depth of the stirrup itself. Coming up a little short.

I'm developing stirrup envy.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Newf, you can probably get copper rivets and burrs at most any good hardware, in the amount you need for a couple of bucks. As for a rivet setter, when setting the rivet over the burr, I use a ball peen hammer, peen side to upset the shank of the rivet till it is mushroomed to your satisfaction, then a setter to "finish" it off. Flip it over and "set the head" so it has a nice rounded surface. If you don't have a setter, you can make a couple of different sizes by taking a carridge bolt and grinding the head concave. I did this in the beginning and am still using them today. They worked so well, I just have never upgraded. As for the twist, God forbid I should give you advice that others will frown upon, but; if you don't have enough material to make the twist and wrap, just make them wet on the bottom of the fender, and leathers, put your stirrups on, attach the buckles and twist them by putting a pole through them while on your stand, without the wrap, weight them so they are tristed in riding position, and let them dry. They will take a good set, even without the wrap. Like Andy, I shoot for 2" to 2 1/2" from the bottom of the fender to the fold.

Bob

[Newfman]

You would have to shorten the end where the buckle is riveted in. Shorten to as little as 10-11"

I assume that is to keep the buckle from getting to high on the horse? Otherwise one might just add a few holes and shorten the tail. I have soaked one side and put the twist in it and got the hobble back on while it is drying. It looks like I bought a couple inches. This sure looks like it is a pain in the butt to adjust stirrup lenghts. I know when I am on a rather round horse I need to shorten my stirrups and on a thinner horse I lengthen them. I just don't recall having this much trouble. I will have to go back to my friends place and look at their saddles again.

Here are the last two photos this camera will ever take. I guess it is graveyard time for the Ol' Cannon CyberShot. Unfortunately, the newly twisted leather won't get photographed. Time to go to Best Buy. Wife is not happy about the death of her camera. Just when she was about to go to the CanAM Sled Dog race. "What? Your Camera quit working?!?!?"

[Newfman]

Oh, one more thing. The leather on each side of the buckle is bound with about 3" of stitching as well as having the 3 rivets. So, I need to learn how to do that real quick as well.

It was bound to happen someday.

Feel free to clarify things if it sounds like I have things confused. The new length from the bottom of the curve of the stirrup leather (where the actual stirrup seats) to the base of the buckle (the end of the leather where the buckle protrudes) is 11" without any modification. So, I should take that apart and shorten it some more, right?

Edited February 28, 2010 by Newfman

[AndyKnight]

When you are finished ... the stirrup hobble strap will not usually go around the stirrup leather after it comes out of the buckle..just around the leathers that go around the stirrup. When adjusting stirrup leather length the bottom end by the stirrup should never be moved. The only time that hobble strap should be removed is to clean or oil. The leathers should be slid around the bars at the top when adjusting stirrupleather length . It pays to keep them well lubricated !

Hope this makes sense.

The stitching either side of the buckle can easily done by hand however you can also choose to leave it without stitching and just use the rivets.

Oh, one more thing. The leather on each side of the buckle is bound with about 3" of stitching as well as having the 3 rivets. So, I need to learn how to do that real quick as well.

It was bound to happen someday.

Feel free to clarify things if it sounds like I have things confused. The new length from the bottom of the curve of the stirrup leather (where the actual stirrup seats) to the base of the buckle (the end of the leather where the buckle protrudes) is 11" without any modification. So, I should take that apart and shorten it some more, right? If the buckle comes too high up and touches the rigging or creates bulk where you don't want it it will need to be shortened. 11" sounds long to me.

[Newfman]

Andy

When adjusting stirrup leather length the bottom end by the stirrup should never be moved. The only time that hobble strap should be removed is to clean or oil. The leathers should be slid around the bars at the top when adjusting stirrupleather length . It pays to keep them well lubricated !

You forgot. . . "...and here's your sign."

I new that, but when I had everything taken apart and was trying to figure out how I was going to 'fix' this, I somehow forgot how I adjust my stirrups.

That's the nice thing about the internet. You get to be stupid in perpetuity!

[Newfman]

You would have to shorten the end where the buckle is riveted in. Shorten to as little as 10-11"

So, being that I would only be shortening it about an inch to get that strap down to 11" (including the buckle) is it worth it or necessary to do this, as opposed to just adding holes or shortening it by removal of the rivets at the top of the fender and cutting the strap there?

I would prefer that the buckle end be riveted and sewn, and I am willing to do that should you deem it necessary to work that end. Just making sure that it is, before I order an awl, needles, overstitch wheel, and . . . talent.

[Newfman]

Newf, you can probably get copper rivets and burrs at most any good hardware, in the amount you need for a couple of bucks. As for a rivet setter, when setting the rivet over the burr, I use a ball peen hammer, peen side to upset the shank of the rivet till it is mushroomed to your satisfaction, then a setter to "finish" it off. Flip it over and "set the head" so it has a nice rounded surface. If you don't have a setter, you can make a couple of different sizes by taking a carridge bolt and grinding the head concave. I did this in the beginning and am still using them today. They worked so well, I just have never upgraded. As for the twist, God forbid I should give you advice that others will frown upon, but; if you don't have enough material to make the twist and wrap, just make them wet on the bottom of the fender, and leathers, put your stirrups on, attach the buckles and twist them by putting a pole through them while on your stand, without the wrap, weight them so they are tristed in riding position, and let them dry. They will take a good set, even without the wrap. Like Andy, I shoot for 2" to 2 1/2" from the bottom of the fender to the fold.

Bob

I just called my little hardware store in town (population 1500) and they have #9 solid Copper rivets in a variety of lengths. Whoda'thunk?! I would have never looked there.

So, that brings up a new question. What is the rule of thumb for rivet shank excess, beyond the thickness of the leather? Do you just get the 1" and trim them down with dikes or something to a certain length before setting them? What is the optimal length beyond the leather for a good set, I think is a better way of asking?

[AndyKnight]

I just called my little hardware store in town (population 1500) and they have #9 solid Copper rivets in a variety of lengths. Whoda'thunk?! I would have never looked there.

So, that brings up a new question. What is the rule of thumb for rivet shank excess, beyond the thickness of the leather? Do you just get the 1" and trim them down with dikes or something to a certain length before setting them? What is the optimal length beyond the leather for a good set, I think is a better way of asking?

Figure on cutting off after setting the washer. I leave about a 1/16" to peen. . 3/4 " is the length I generally buy. works for almost all saddlemaking applications. Just try a couple before on some scrap.

[Newfman]

Figure on cutting off after setting the washer. I leave about a 1/16" to peen. . 3/4 " is the length I generally buy. works for almost all saddlemaking applications. Just try a couple before on some scrap.

Got it, thanks Andy

[Newfman]

So, being that I would only be shortening it about an inch to get that strap down to 11" (including the buckle) is it worth it or necessary to do this, as opposed to just adding holes or shortening it by removal of the rivets at the top of the fender and cutting the strap there?

I would prefer that the buckle end be riveted and sewn, and I am willing to do that should you deem it necessary to work that end. Just making sure that it is, before I order an awl, needles, overstitch wheel, and . . . talent.

or shortening it by removal of the rivets at the top of the fender and cutting the strap there?

Now that I have it taken apart, I can see that it isn't riveted up there where I thought it was.

[AndyKnight]

How long are the stirrup leather below the fender. Measure withe the stirrup leathers laid out or at least un buckled.?

[Newfman]

14 inches, not including the buckle.

[AndyKnight]

14 inches, not including the buckle.

You can cut up to 3 " off and then form your twist with your stirrup closer to your fender. . It this doesn't gain you enough you can shorten the fender at the top where it would be hidden s under the seat jockey. (This is done quite often when shorter people buy taller peoples saddles. ) The other end you can always punch more holes and trim if it is too long.

[Newfman]

I was able to shorten it closer to the fender and soak and re-twist it. I believe that will be sufficient. Is there any reason I should not just add three more holes to the tail end, as opposed to unriviting and shortening it from the buckle end?

And what size punch is it for blevins buckles?

Edited March 6, 2010 by Newfman

[AndyKnight]

I was able to shorten it closer to the fender and soak and re-twist it. I believe that will be sufficient. Is there any reason I should not just add three more holes to the tail end, as opposed to unriviting and shortening it from the buckle end? I suspect it will cause the buckle to sit too high possibly causing needless bulk...

And what size punch is it for blevins buckles? 1/4"