Assembled The Cuirass

[Eldorado]

Folks,

Assembled, finally, the cuirass this evening and would love to hear what you all think.

The look I'm going for ultimately is something like this:

[MADMAX22]

That turned out really good. You gonna update with pics when all garbed up.

[hivemind]

Very nice!

[UKRay]

I do like to see things that push back the boundaries a little and give us some fresh ideas to play with. Nice job!

I've never seen leather armour quite like this and I'm looking forward to seeing the whole job completed. Don't forget to post pictures.

Ray

[Eldorado]

I do like to see things that push back the boundaries a little and give us some fresh ideas to play with. Nice job!

I've never seen leather armour quite like this and I'm looking forward to seeing the whole job completed. Don't forget to post pictures.

Ray

You know, I hadn't either.

But I'd seen a ton of "Dragon armor" and fantasy styles. I'd also seen variations on Braveheart's brigandine or 13th Warrior's pieced armor, but nothing that demonstrated wealth. While the fantasy designs (with horns and scales) are usually really impressive, I'm much more connected to historical accuracy. Though there are apparently no good examples of leather armor that have survived, I have to believe that a Lord would want to demonstrate his position and protect his back, while going to festival day ... and not be encased in heavy steel.

Consequently, my assumption was that they would want a tooled cuirass that would be lightwieght and cool, but make it clear that they are rich, powerful, and still the boss. So, I stole the basic layout of the steel ones. I have a dozen or so pictures from the Greenwich Royal Armories taped up around my workshop, to keep me in the right frame of mind. Besides, the wife looks elegant and the older armor I created out of latigo has me looking like I'm fresh from the battlefield. Mismatch of styles.

I'm working on the tassets now and its taking a bit of thinking to get the design right. By the 16th century the tassets were usually 5-10 lames and created a very exaggerated hip appearance.

The biggest problem with this piece is that it took so long to tool and is so large on the table, that my wrist and arm were often resting on tooled features when doing others. As a result, the parts that were done first have slightly less definition than the later ones.

Thanks for posting your thoughts. I'll send up more pics when the tassets get done. After that is a fully articulated gorget. I might not get it all done before summer and the faires come around.

Eldorado

[hivemind]

Though there are apparently no good examples of leather armor that have survived,

Current thought on leather armor from the history of Europe goes like this: there are thousands of examples of leather belts, shoes, pouches, tack, vests, and other leather products found all over archaeological sites throughout Europe and the Mediterranean. However, not one single example of leather armor has ever been found at sites of battles, stongholds, armories, burial mounds and graves, or anywhere else. The only leather armor that's been found are padded jacks that were worn under maille, and a few kid-sized stuff that was obviously made as a toy for children.

That's it. Leather armor is an invention of Dungeons & Dragons and fantasy literature. Don't get me wrong, I love leather armor. I wear it when I fight and make a lot of it. But don't kid yourself - what you're making is "historically styled", not "historically accurate".

Ug, sorry about the rant...

[Eldorado]

Current thought on leather armor from the history of Europe goes like this: there are thousands of examples of leather belts, shoes, pouches, tack, vests, and other leather products found all over archaeological sites throughout Europe and the Mediterranean. However, not one single example of leather armor has ever been found at sites of battles, stongholds, armories, burial mounds and graves, or anywhere else. The only leather armor that's been found are padded jacks that were worn under maille, and a few kid-sized stuff that was obviously made as a toy for children.

That's it. Leather armor is an invention of Dungeons & Dragons and fantasy literature. Don't get me wrong, I love leather armor. I wear it when I fight and make a lot of it. But don't kid yourself - what you're making is "historically styled", not "historically accurate".

Ug, sorry about the rant...

Can't disagree with the historic record, but definitely prefer to model off of historic stuff rather than Dragonlance or somesuch.

I suppose I can choose to believe that the leather just decays so quickly that it won't be found. But of course, it would seem that some rich gentleman could/would have kept some nice in his personal armory.

On the other hand, I did locate a few weeks ago an academic analysis of armor as depicted in the statuary/carvings on the top of tombs of knights. I thought I bookmarked it, but I may have done so on a different computer. If I locate it again, I'll post. Through the 14th and 15th centuries (I think) the writer was pointing out parts of these marble effigies that were likely to be cuirbolli (sic). These included both pauldrons and arm armour that showed a tooling and design that wasn't being done in steel at that time - e.g. no examples in steel have survived. Things like lion faces in the shoulder piece and such. The stonecarver might have been engaging in artistic license (just as we may be today), but the writer didnt seem to think so.

Also adding to my hope that something like this was actually used at one time, is that the British Royal Armouries does have leather breastplates and leather helmets in its collection. However, while they note their existance, they don't publish a picture and note the dates to actually be the late 1700s. Not exactly evidence, but again providing some indication perhaps.

[hivemind]

That's interesting, and if you do find some scholarly evidence of historical leather armor from anywhere between 100 BCE and 1500 CE, I'd be grateful if you'd pass it along. But this: "I suppose I can choose to believe that the leather just decays so quickly that it won't be found." doesn't address why there's plenty of other leather items - shoes, purses, belts, etc. - but no armor.

But yeah, I'm totally with you on making historically-based leather armor. I just did a suit of lorica segmentata for a friend from 12oz saddle skirting, and my own current combat armor is historically-styled articulated arms and legs with a Milanese-style articulated cuirass and plackart.

Edited March 17, 2010 by hivemind

[Eldorado]

That's interesting, and if you do find some scholarly evidence of historical leather armor from anywhere between 100 BCE and 1500 CE, I'd be grateful if you'd pass it along. But this: "I suppose I can choose to believe that the leather just decays so quickly that it won't be found." doesn't address why there's plenty of other leather items - shoes, purses, belts, etc. - but no armor.

But yeah, I'm totally with you on making historically-based leather armor. I just did a suit of lorica segmentata for a friend from 12oz saddle skirting, and my own current combat armor is historically-styled articulated arms and legs with a Milanese-style articulated cuirass and plackart.

I would be cool to see the lorica and the combat armor.

I think I found the site I mentioned at http://www.arador.com/articles/spaulders.html There is a discussion of effigies and cuir boille. Obviously, these things are either brasses or stone carvings, so we don't know for sure. But it seems to raise the possibility.

I also noticed mention of Cuir Boille in one of the Osprey books. They are analyzing a statue or bronze of a horseman horseman that stands in Venice and was made around 1480. http://www.scribd.com/doc/6826438/MAA-136-Italian-Medieval-Armies-13001500ocr. I'm not sure of the academic reputation of Osprey, but they don't seem to be aimed at D&D folks.

There's also some mention of cuir boille in this piece, though how this writer knows what he is saying is true is not clear. http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.php/gladius/article/viewFile/187/189

This site is also interesting, but I recognize that this is not really definitive - http://www.angelfire.com/ms/middelton/peterm.html

I guess at best these are food for thought, because it is odd that we would have shoes and such, but no armor. I guess my only speculation would be that there would be at least a pair of shoes for most feet and a belt for every person (understanding that there was much poverty, and maybe not everyone had these things). However, leather armor (or armor pieces) would belong to far fewer people. So the odds would be significantly higher that the common items would be found, while specialized items might not be. But I must confess that this is just supposition.

Thanks much for the thoughts and I would love to see pics of your work.

Eldorado

[yan]

The "handle" of sword are beleived to be made of either wood or leather. As far as I know, there are no good example of middle-age (or older) with this part intact.

I think the main reason why we can find shoes, bags, belt from that periode is the quantity of those. Nearly everyone would use shoes belt and bag but only a few would use armor.

[hivemind]

Thanks much for the thoughts and I would love to see pics of your work.

Sure:

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=22633

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=22285

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=20844

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=21672

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=21509

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=18823

Enjoy!

[Eldorado]

Sure:

http://leatherworker...showtopic=22633

http://leatherworker...showtopic=22285

http://leatherworker...showtopic=20844

http://leatherworker...showtopic=21672

http://leatherworker...showtopic=21509

http://leatherworker...showtopic=18823

Enjoy!

Wow, quite nice. I recognize some of these from having perused this site. I remember being envious at the time.

Thinking about them, I particularly liked the use of the pear shader for the teeth on the mask. It gives it an extra creepy look.

Did you use brass hinges on the lorica? or are the chest bits something else? I like adding brass hardware to things, but am frustrated in finding a source.

Finally, did the finished arm and leg pieces have the flexibility you wanted? I am concerned that I am overengineering (so far only in my mind) the articulation joints of the arm armor I am planning and wonder if your use of copper rivets gave you the result you wanted.

Eldorado

[hivemind]

The hinges on the lorica are brass hinges from Home Depot. Yes, really.

The legs and the arms are pretty close to perfect - no complaints. I think the extra washers and not peening down the rivets tightly worked well.

[Peter Ellis]

Current thought on leather armor from the history of Europe goes like this: there are thousands of examples of leather belts, shoes, pouches, tack, vests, and other leather products found all over archaeological sites throughout Europe and the Mediterranean. However, not one single example of leather armor has ever been found at sites of battles, stongholds, armories, burial mounds and graves, or anywhere else. The only leather armor that's been found are padded jacks that were worn under maille, and a few kid-sized stuff that was obviously made as a toy for children.

That's it. Leather armor is an invention of Dungeons & Dragons and fantasy literature. Don't get me wrong, I love leather armor. I wear it when I fight and make a lot of it. But don't kid yourself - what you're making is "historically styled", not "historically accurate".

Ug, sorry about the rant...

I'm sorry to have to say that you are factually incorrect, but glad to be able to say that, in fact, there are surviving pieces of leather armour. Not a great many, but a significant number and quite enough to prove that the statement "not one single example of leather armour has ever been found" is simply not true.

Leather armour is historically correct for certain times and places, in and outside of Europe.

In addition to actual surviving examples, there are lots of written records that make mention of items such as "curies" which were a leather plate used to reinforce the chest area on a mail hauberk.

Leather armour is not a fantasy creation, it doesn't come from D&D.

But, we really don't have a very good handle on how they made it, what kind of leather they made it from, how they treated it, etc. There's another term that is a clue, but probably a misleading one "cuir bouille" - literally boiled leather, which is where the misleading part comes in. Yet it's pretty clear that they were treating leather to harden it. Modern experimentation and research has learned quite a few things about how to do this - but no one has found a medieval treatise explaining how they did it

[hivemind]

Can you cite sources for the use of leather armor in Europe? The circles I move in don't seem to be able to provide such facts.

[hivemind]

Well, I guess I'll play my own devil's advocate...

Brian R. Price's Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction says on page 9 that as early as the 13th century tournament combats were being fought in "armour of polymerized leather (cuirboille)". He cites references of John W. Waterer's Leather and the Warrior, Museum of Leathercraft, Northampton, 1966 and S. Lysons' Archeologia, first series XVII (1814), pp. 302-305.

I don't have those, so can't verify the veracity of them, but the second one seems to be based on primary research. Anyone have a copy of Waterer's book?

[Eldorado]

Well, I guess I'll play my own devil's advocate...

Brian R. Price's Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction says on page 9 that as early as the 13th century tournament combats were being fought in "armour of polymerized leather (cuirboille)". He cites references of John W. Waterer's Leather and the Warrior, Museum of Leathercraft, Northampton, 1966 and S. Lysons' Archeologia, first series XVII (1814), pp. 302-305.

I don't have those, so can't verify the veracity of them, but the second one seems to be based on primary research. Anyone have a copy of Waterer's book?

Unfortunately, not I.

[MissingLink]

I have a copy or Mr. Waterer's book. There are some references to cuir bouilli armors from the Middle Ages. On p74, he states "in the accounts of the Windsor Tournament in 1278 we find that the thirty-eight cuirasses of cuir bouilli were made by Milo the Currier". There are also several references to effigies showing detailed designs on armor pieces prior to the time when iron armor was heavily decorated, though he does state that there is no way to confirm that these are leather from the effigy.

[Eldorado]

I have a copy or Mr. Waterer's book. There are some references to cuir bouilli armors from the Middle Ages. On p74, he states "in the accounts of the Windsor Tournament in 1278 we find that the thirty-eight cuirasses of cuir bouilli were made by Milo the Currier". There are also several references to effigies showing detailed designs on armor pieces prior to the time when iron armor was heavily decorated, though he does state that there is no way to confirm that these are leather from the effigy.

Hurray for Milo the Currier! He has validated all my many hours of work. *wink*

Certainly would be cool to see what the 38 cuirasses looked like and how they were made. I found reference to the 38 sets of armor provided for the chevaliers at this Tourney (they apparently couldnt bring their own) at The Tournament: Its Periods and Phases By R. Coltman Clephan, Charles Ffoulkes - viewable at this link - http://books.google.com/books?id=5-J-aUiA0XwC&pg=PR11&lpg=PR11&dq=Windsor+Tournament+1278&source=bl&ots=nZMS8zDb2S&sig=_xO55OAyKqT7YZ-17vQE5hsVLlI&hl=en&ei=m1-_S5zqBYXfnAfQ4_D9CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Windsor%20Tournament%201278&f=false

Unfortunately, a further check of the Windsor Tournament of 1278 reveals some interesting contextual information. At this website, http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/tournament-medieval-/jousters.html the Windsor Tourney is characterized as a low-impact attempt at decreasing the intensity of the bloodshed that had begun to take root in the competition circles of the day. Similar, it appears, to adding the "Roughing the Passer" rule to American football. You'll note in this text, as well, that there were rules added to try and control 13th century British Soccer Hooligans. I guess the Brits have always been had this problem. Apparently, the leather was just a part of decreasing the deadliness of the weapons (whalebone) and backing off the protection of the armor to cut down on "unsportsman like conduct." As a result, or to help ensure it, this tourney has come to be known as the Jousts for Peace.

While this information actually validates, to a small extent, my original suggestion that lords might wear a lighter, more flexible form of armor to the faire or out-on-the town -- to show perhaps that they are still boss while remaining protected from the knives of cutpurses -- it doesn't in anyway suggest that they used this armor for warfare. Since, that wasnt my original supposition, I'm not bothered by it. But, the argument remains standing (though perhaps with a slight wobble) that the D&D leather armor (studded or not) doesnt reflect reality.

I might point out though, that no one said D&D leather armor had to be much more than a leather horseman's jack (essentially the motorcycle leathers of the time). The armor class it imparted (witness my geekyness), wasn't worth much more than that anyway.

Eldorado

[yan]

While searching for hirtoricaly accurate leather armor I found a lot of reference (and a couple of picture) of leather gambison (or jack).

But since I was searching for a cuirasse in cuir bouilli (I did'nt found any picture of one that was found in a archeological dig, yet)

I did'nt note those reference.

But a padded leather vest would offer a good protection in a ''sporting event''.

[MissingLink]

There is also some conjecture (nothing solid) that leather was added as rigid protection under maille. The possibility of hardened leather or buff leather to add protection to the shoulders, elbows, and forearms would make sense to protect areas where the bones are close enough to the skin to be an issue with flexible armor.

[hivemind]

MissingLink, thanks for posting. I see you're here from the Armour Archive, where I occasionally lurk and read but am not registered at. They have anything to say about this topic over there?

Eldorado, great info. What you've found pleases both of us.

Right now, I'm still sticking by my assertion that leather armor was never used in the western world as a primary armor material in any regularity. As tournament armor/dress armor/with maille, sure. As "leather armor" in the sense we think of it as (and as often is worn for LARP/SCA) today - not so much.

Edited April 10, 2010 by hivemind

[MissingLink]

Hivemind, I've seen you on the Dag forums as well (Erich MacKermak). As for the Archive, the general acceptance is it was only used as tournament armour during the period. For primary armour it has not been proven that is was ever in use extensively. I still like it though.

[hivemind]

Hivemind, I've seen you on the Dag forums as well (Erich MacKermak).

Oh hai!

[Eldorado]

That turned out really good. You gonna update with pics when all garbed up.

Here are some pics of the armor with the completed tassets and sword belt at Colorado's Ren Fair on Mardi Gras weekend.

What do you all think?

Eldorado