Legal Issues Selling Holsters

[whinewine]

I believe that several of us simply want to know how common this type of occurance is.

Excellent question, Greg!

Just how many of the members on this site have been sued over something they made from leather?

I would also like to know, just out of curiosity.

And for those here that think I have left myself legally naked, so to speak, by not having insurance, etc, let me just say that I have been sued probably 11, 12 times- perhaps more (but who's counting)... but not over something I made from leather.

When you enter the Correctional System, you get 'de-flowered' very quickly. So, Please, I KNOW what frivolous lawsuits are all about!...(over things you would or could probably never imagine in your wildest dreams). I was even sued because I said HAH! to an inmate once when he thought he deserved support for parole. I have been sued simply because I was a member of the Unit Management Team that made an adverse decision against an inmate; I have been sued because an inmate didn't like an answer I gave to him; I have been sued simply because I was part of the chain of command from the Superintendent, on down... among other ludicrous lawsuits. And guess what?- NONE EVER MADE IT TO COURT! surprise, surprise...

You can't cave in to thugs. You can't go through life being a wussie, fearing that you'll be sued.

[Denster]

Excellent question, Greg!

Just how many of the members on this site have been sued over something they made from leather?

I would also like to know, just out of curiosity.

And for those here that think I have left myself legally naked, so to speak, by not having insurance, etc, let me just say that I have been sued probably 11, 12 times- perhaps more (but who's counting)... but not over something I made from leather.

When you enter the Correctional System, you get 'de-flowered' very quickly. So, Please, I KNOW what frivolous lawsuits are all about!...(over things you would or could probably never imagine in your wildest dreams). I was even sued because I said HAH! to an inmate once when he thought he deserved support for parole. I have been sued simply because I was a member of the Unit Management Team that made an adverse decision against an inmate; I have been sued because an inmate didn't like an answer I gave to him; I have been sued simply because I was part of the chain of command from the Superintendent, on down... among other ludicrous lawsuits. And guess what?- NONE EVER MADE IT TO COURT! surprise, surprise...

You can't cave in to thugs. You can't go through life being a wussie, fearing that you'll be sued.

I spent over 30 years as a law enforcement officer and I, like you, was sued a number of times. Like you none of the cases made it past summary judgement and like you I was represented by my employer's attorneys. In my case the County Prosecutor's Office. With one exception. That time the Prosecuting Attorney was named in the suit also. The County had to hire outside counsel and the bill came to nearly $24K just to get to summary judgement where the case was throwen out.

If you are conducting any kind of business. Liability insurance just makes sense. If shelling out a couple of hundred a year makes me a wussie, well OK I'm a wussie.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

You can't cave in to thugs. You can't go through life being a wussie, fearing that you'll be sued.

'You ever have to foot the bill for the legal defense in any of those cases? That could end a small business. I'm glad you never had a case go full turn, but that doesn't really mean much to anyone who has gone under due to frivolous law suits. I also know a guy who has been in over half a dozen wrecks and has never been hurt, but that doesn't keep me from wearing my seat belt...

If I didn't believe in being prepared, I wouldn't carry a gun either. Better safe than sorry, so to speak.

[Shorts]

Excellent question, Greg!

Just how many of the members on this site have been sued over something they made from leather?

I would also like to know, just out of curiosity.

And for those here that think I have left myself legally naked, so to speak, by not having insurance, etc, let me just say that I have been sued probably 11, 12 times- perhaps more (but who's counting)... but not over something I made from leather.

When you enter the Correctional System, you get 'de-flowered' very quickly. So, Please, I KNOW what frivolous lawsuits are all about!...(over things you would or could probably never imagine in your wildest dreams). I was even sued because I said HAH! to an inmate once when he thought he deserved support for parole. I have been sued simply because I was a member of the Unit Management Team that made an adverse decision against an inmate; I have been sued because an inmate didn't like an answer I gave to him; I have been sued simply because I was part of the chain of command from the Superintendent, on down... among other ludicrous lawsuits. And guess what?- NONE EVER MADE IT TO COURT! surprise, surprise...

You can't cave in to thugs. You can't go through life being a wussie, fearing that you'll be sued.

No one is caving to thugs. And part of conducting a legitimate business is registering said business with the state and (forgive me) the Feds. If that's not what you want then don't do it. But don't sit and name-call the rest of us because we care to take care of our business the way we see fit.

I don't have the answer to how many lawsuits are brought against leatherworkers. Do your research if you really need to know. If you'd like said research to prove your point that we don't need to protect our business affairs, well I'm going to tell you not to waste your time because you're not going to change my mind anyway. If you want to know for your own personal satisfaction...

'You ever have to foot the bill for the legal defense in any of those cases? That could end a small business. I'm glad you never had a case go full turn, but that doesn't really mean much to anyone who has gone under due to frivolous law suits. I also know a guy who has been in over half a dozen wrecks and has never been hurt, but that doesn't keep me from wearing my seat belt...

If I didn't believe in being prepared, I wouldn't carry a gun either. Better safe than sorry, so to speak.

[whinewine]

No one is caving to thugs. And part of conducting a legitimate business is registering said business with the state and (forgive me) the Feds. If that's not what you want then don't do it. But don't sit and name-call the rest of us because we care to take care of our business the way we see fit.

I don't have the answer to how many lawsuits are brought against leatherworkers. Do your research if you really need to know. If you'd like said research to prove your point that we don't need to protect our business affairs, well I'm going to tell you not to waste your time because you're not going to change my mind anyway. If you want to know for your own personal satisfaction...

I'm sorry you're taking offense, because I meant none. All I meant was that we can't go through life fearing a lawsuit. And I'm not name calling anyone, it's just that people confuse POSSIBILITY with PROBABILITY- and they are not the same. As a result, people end up doing nothing for fear of something (most likely remote-at best) happening. Or they overreact to an event and cause/create the situation they most fear. I've seen that numerous times (the 'self-fulfilling prophecy'). No one is trying to change your mind- you made that perfectly clear from the start- and that's fine. This is a forum- a place where we can (& should be able to) exchange differing ideas. And I am not saying that we don't need to protect our business affairs- on the contrary- but I feel someone who makes an occasional and well constructed item runs a very miniscule chance of being sued. But if your entire business consists of making tactical gear (where the purchaser's life depends on it functioning properly), then by God, you had better have enough legal protection behind you.

And yes, btw, my business is registered with both the Commonwealth and the Feds & I do pay my taxes on it, too.

And yes, I do carry $1,000,000 liability insurance on my business.

And the original question still is:

Just how many members on this site have been sued over something they made from leather?

Edited April 18, 2010 by whinewine

[Shorts]

No one is sitting in a closet cowering terrified or handicapped by any actions taken to protect themselves. Don't blow your argument out of proportion. It is wildly inaccurate.

I carry. The chances of actually using my gun are minuscule (just like being sued over a holster) but that one time I need it, I'm prepared. According to your reasoning I have no need to be carrying (and no need for liability preparations). Is that right?

As far as I'm concerned there is no distinction between "tactical gear" and any other gun leather (concealed carry, cowboy action, IDPA, hunting, range use). They all involve real guns that shoot real bullets. The handling and safety requirements are paramount.

I'm sorry you're taking offense, because I meant none.

All I meant was that we can't go through life fearing a lawsuit. And I'm not name calling anyone, it's just that people confuse POSSIBILITY with PROBABILITY- and they are not the same. As a result, people end up doing nothing for fear of something (most likely remote-at best) happening. Or they overreact to an event and cause/create the situation they most fear. I've seen that numerous times (the 'self-fulfilling prophecy'). No one is trying to change your mind- you made that perfectly clear from the start- and that's fine. This is a forum- a place where we can (& should be able to) exchange differing ideas. And I am not saying that we don't need to protect our business affairs- on the contrary- but I feel someone who makes an occasional and well constructed item runs a very miniscule chance of being sued. But if your entire business consists of making tactical gear (where the purchaser's life depends on it functioning properly), then by God, you had better have enough legal protection behind you.

And yes, btw, my business is registered with both the Commonwealth and the Feds & I do pay my taxes on it, too.

And yes, I do carry $1,000,000 liability insurance on my business.

And the original question still is:

Just how many members on this site have been sued over something they made from leather?

Edited April 18, 2010 by Shorts

[JoshDuvall]

Just to try and put some rest to this topic...

I talked to my lawyer and a couple others (one that owns a leatherworking business actually). The information I was given was basically this...

If you're just making a few holsters they wouldn't worry about it. Waiver, Insurance, etc. will not make a difference in getting sued or not. Bottom line is until this country gets some tort reform we will have this problem of anybody can sue anybody so there's no reason to waste your time worrying about it. Your best defense in any case would be to know the weapon you're making the holster, sheath, etc. for and be able to demonstrate proper safety and usage of both the firearm/knife and holster, sheath, etc. 99.9% of the time that there is a malfunction it is in neither the weapon or holster but with the individual.

If you're selling your leatherwork frequently (and not just holsters) It would probably be in your best interest to form and LLC. Not just for this case but it also has some other benifits.

I was told that they wouldn't worry about the insurances unless you're selling a very large number of products.

Just what I was told. Not trying to change anybody's ideas or opinions just my 2 cents.

[whinewine]

No one is sitting in a closet cowering terrified or handicapped by any actions taken to protect themselves. [1]Don't blow your argument out of proportion. It is wildly inaccurate.

I carry. The chances of actually using my gun are minuscule (just like being sued over a holster) but that one time I need it, I'm prepared. According to your reasoning I have no need to be carrying (and no need for liability preparations). Is that right? [2]

As far as I'm concerned there is no distinction between "tactical gear" and any other gun leather (concealed carry, cowboy action, IDPA, hunting, range use). They all involve real guns that shoot real bullets. The handling and safety requirements are paramount. [3]

I guess you just don't want to let this go...

Your statement #[1]:... I'm not blowing my argument out of proportion, and what, specifically, is wildly inaccurate?

Your statement #[2]:... I NEVER said that- why are you putting words in my mouth? All I said is that someone who constructs 1 or 2 well made items is most likely NOT going to be sued. You're going to carry a gun,(& you've made that unequivically clear) and that's fine- I don't have a problem with that- but somehow you're making that equivalent to some individual who makes a few holsters to being sued???

Let me ask you: when you first started out, did you say ..."I'm going to make holsters, even though I have never made one before, so I'm going to rush out & get $1 million in liability insurance & get an LLC BEFORE I start"?... I would venture to guess that you most likely made a few, sold a few, liked what you were doing, BEFORE you actually took the $$$ plunge- correct?

Your statement #[3]:... I agree with you totally- what's your point? (oppositional-defiant disorder?). And so far, NO ONE has come out on this site to answer the question-

Just how many members on this site have been sued over something they made of leather?

You told me to do my research, and that's what I'm trying to do, but you apparently want me to go elsewhere to do it, and NOT do it on LWN... HUH?

Let's just try to put some rest to this topic: Thank you Josh Duvall, for bringing some fresh air into this! You did actually did speak with an attorney & other knowledgeable people who do know the law instead of going off half-cocked.

I'm certainly done with the topic & I will speak no more about it.

[Shorts]

I see you're just as stubborn. How about that?

I did make a few holsters before starting the business. It was a concern then, especially when I started looking for a maker's mark. Now it was going to be my name on that item, completely identifiable, for better or for worse. I'd be doing a disservice if I didn't say that the liability wasn't on my mind. My formal education is health and fitness. As a trainer liability is a very big consideration. It's a part of the field that cannot be ignored. In fact, any employer requires liability coverage from it's trainers just to hold a contract and current certification. If my conviction to protect myself is higher than yours then what is the problem?

Do your research. Just like there is more than one book in the library, there is more than one site on the internet. Being that LW is a very accessible, public site, as a maker in the field I wouldn't air much if any serous dirty laundry or inner workings here. The superstitious athlete in is the other reason I'll give you no answer. If you don't understand that I'm not going to beat my head against the wall trying to explain it to you. You seem like the kind who won't accept a simple explanation anyway. Incidentally over the last day or so I have done a search on the topic and found the answers. I was hoping you'd come back with the same information that I was able to find. So far, no luck.

I guess you just don't want to let this go...

Your statement #[1]:... I'm not blowing my argument out of proportion, and what, specifically, is wildly inaccurate?

Your statement #[2]:... I NEVER said that- why are you putting words in my mouth? All I said is that someone who constructs 1 or 2 well made items is most likely NOT going to be sued. You're going to carry a gun,(& you've made that unequivically clear) and that's fine- I don't have a problem with that- but somehow you're making that equivalent to some individual who makes a few holsters to being sued???

Let me ask you: when you first started out, did you say ..."I'm going to make holsters, even though I have never made one before, so I'm going to rush out & get $1 million in liability insurance & get an LLC BEFORE I start"?... I would venture to guess that you most likely made a few, sold a few, liked what you were doing, BEFORE you actually took the $$$ plunge- correct?

Your statement #[3]:... I agree with you totally- what's your point? (oppositional-defiant disorder?). And so far, NO ONE has come out on this site to answer the question-

Just how many members on this site have been sued over something they made of leather?

You told me to do my research, and that's what I'm trying to do, but you apparently want me to go elsewhere to do it, and NOT do it on LWN... HUH?

Let's just try to put some rest to this topic: Thank you Josh Duvall, for bringing some fresh air into this! You did actually did speak with an attorney & other knowledgeable people who do know the law instead of going off half-cocked.

I'm certainly done with the topic & I will speak no more about it.

[gregintenn]

Incidentally over the last day or so I have done a search on the topic and found the answers. I was hoping you'd come back with the same information that I was able to find. So far, no luck.

Wouldn't a normal human being simply post a link? I thought we were here to help each other; not tear each other down.