New Wade Rough Out Saddle

[HanginH]

I just finished this wade saddle this week and thought that I owuld try and get some constructive critiquing. It is a built on a Rod Nikkel Tree with 90 degree bars, 4" hand hole, 9" fork width, a 4 1/2" cantle and 3 1/2" high x 4" cap wood post Guadalajara horn. I used Herman Oak Leather and stainless steel hardware along with 2 1/2" stirrup leathers.

Have a look and any suggestions or critisism is greately appreciated.

Have a great Day!

Justin Hozack

[Dusty Leather]

Well, first off this is a pretty fine rig. If you don't mind I will offer some meaningless pontificating advice just so I can hear myself talk as though I have something real to offer. LOL

Seriously now.........

Latigo is a ware leather so over time it is going to stretch especially with elements such as rain so we try to avoid using it in places like buckles even for rope straps.

If you take a piece of medium sand paper and go over that rough out you will get rid of all those ravines in the leather, finish it up with some hundred grit.

The only other thing I see is that they way your stirrup leathers are laying they may pinch your leg but if you ride with chaps or chinks you should not notice it. Other than that it's a hell of a nice rig, never have seen that stamp used as a boarder with that pattern before it is interesting.

[Denise]

Looks good Justin! How many saddles have you built now, if you don't mind my asking?

[HanginH]

Thanks Dusty for the tip to finish up the rough out with the sand paper and along with the sugegestion not use the latigo leather for things like rope staps and to hold the rope strap buckle on. This is exactly why I like posting things on here because the little things guys pint out sometimes can make you saddles look just that much more professional. So thanks.

Denise this is my third one and definetly my best thus far. I think it was that high quality tree I put in that made all the diffence.

By the way what are you doing on here? Aren't you supposed to be working on the two trees I ordered from you yesterday?

Just joking

Hope you guys are having a great day up there in Valleyview!

Justin

Edited April 22, 2010 by HanginH

[Denise]

Justin,

Thanks for the nice plug for our trees. Sorry I have taken so long to get back to you. I've been in the shop getting things going on those two orders you gave us...

Actually, Rod has worked through the orders pretty well this winter so we aren't too far behind at the moment. You'll be getting a phone call shortly.

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Justin,

First off, good job using a Nikkel tree... alot of people making their first few saddles are tempted to use inferior trees while they are "learning" and don't realize all the benefits to be gained by using a quality tree, even on their first efforts.

If your really want a useful critique, try and post a number of photos from different angles that better show the seat profile, cantle binding, rear jockeys (where they fit around the back of the cantle), ear cuts, and areas of handstitching. That said, from what I can see in the photo, it looks like you did a pretty nice job overall. The seat seems to be a decent shape, your ear-cuts look smooth, the fork and horn looks like smooth work, and you used decent materials.

There are a couple areas that you may need to look at a little closer. Probably the biggest concern regarding function is it appears your flat plate rigging is dropped too low. I've taken your photo and added a few lines to it to illustrate my point. I've used a red circle over your blevins keeper... you don't want that keeper sitting on top of your rigging hardware where it will create a lump under the rider's knees. I've drawn a green line which is where the bottom of your rigging plate could probably be raised to. To put even more room between the blevins keeper and the rigging hardware, you could shorten up the stirrup leather extensions by 1-2"s (This is the area the blevins plate is riveted). This isn't always necessary but if you get a rider on the short side, you may have to do this to keep the keeper off the rigging.

On the aesthetic side of things, you can improve the overall balance of the saddle by changing your seat jockey shape. You have a nice balanced look to the rear skirt and rear jockey but then your seat jockey drops too low and the shape doesn't appear symmetrical. I've drawn a red oval to illustrate this. The jockey doesn't need to be oval shape but it should be relatively symmetrical. I've also added two blue circles to show how the seat should blend in with the front and rear ears. You did this on the rear below the ear cut but not on the front ear. Without that rounded area, the seat will be more prone to tearing if anything ever catches the seat jockey.

At the front of the saddle where your front button is, I've drawn two lines. The purple line bisects where your front button is. The blue line bisects where I would put it; The photo of the tree shows where the string holes would be drilled and the line through them matches up with where the front edge of the fork will be once the leather is on the tree (compare this to the lines I drew on your saddle). Moving the button forward will require you to add about 1" to the front of your skirts but it will help address a couple of issues. By moving the front button forward, you can then move the second button forward as well which will help to keep it further away from your rider's leg... If you've ever raked your thigh across that second button without chaps, you'll know why you want to keep it out of the way. Moving the second button forward will also move your seat jockey forward and help you to cover up the open area of your rigging. Ideally, the front edge of your seat jockey should cover the stitch line of your rigging. I've drawn a green line in front of the seat jockey to indicate the space I'd like to see covered. Besides extending your seat jockey forward, you may also have to alter your rigging pattern.

The only other thing I can see is the top of your front jockey appears to be higher than the skirt. I like the top of the front jockey to follow the top edge of the skirt as it goes through the gullet. It may just be the angle of the photo creating this illusion but if not, you could take about 1/3" from the top of that jockey.

Don't be discouraged by what I've mentioned because you have done alot of good things on that saddle, especially for your third saddle. What I've pointed out are just small details to help give the saddle a more balanced look.

Look forward to seeing the next one.

Darcy

[spur2009]

I just finished this wade saddle this week and thought that I owuld try and get some constructive critiquing. It is a built on a Rod Nikkel Tree with 90 degree bars, 4" hand hole, 9" fork width, a 4 1/2" cantle and 3 1/2" high x 4" cap wood post Guadalajara horn. I used Herman Oak Leather and stainless steel hardware along with 2 1/2" stirrup leathers.

Have a look and any suggestions or critisism is greately appreciated.

Have a great Day!

Justin Hozack

Very Nice job!

[HanginH]

Thanks for all the comments and critiques Darcy. It must have taken you a bit of time to get all that information typed out but it will be greatly appreciated and I will be putting all to good use on the next saddle I build. I am definetly going to ajust my rigging pattern and bring it up some but is there a rule of thumb on how far down the rigging should be?

Thanks again for all the info and help!

Spur and Denise thanks for the nice comments as well!

Have a great day.

Justin

[steve mason]

Thanks for all the comments and critiques Darcy. It must have taken you a bit of time to get all that information typed out but it will be greatly appreciated and I will be putting all to good use on the next saddle I build. I am definetly going to ajust my rigging pattern and bring it up some but is there a rule of thumb on how far down the rigging should be?

Thanks again for all the info and help!

Spur and Denise thanks for the nice comments as well!

Have a great day.

Justin

Justin, my rule of thumb with that riggin hardware is as follows;

the bottom of the ring is 6 1/2" below the bottom of the bar edge, with 777 hardware 6 1/4"

Steve

Edited May 11, 2010 by steve mason

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Hi Justin,

I never use 550 rings so I can't comment on them but I agree with Steve that about 6 1/4"s below the bar is about right for a 777 plate. You also have to keep in mind a couple of things... the height of your rider may require you to raise that height if they are short in height. You should also consider the tree you are using; some maker's trees have bars with more depth on the front pads than others and quite noticeably so. Some tree styles also have deeper bars than others, ie. a Wade. The saddle in the photo below has a 5053 plate set at about 6 1/4"s. The picture also illustrates what I mentioned in my above post of a symmetrical seat jockey that covers the opening in your flat plate rigging... the leading edge of the seat jockey covers the stitch line on the flat plate by about 3/16th's of an inch.

Darcy

Edited May 11, 2010 by D.A. Kabatoff

[steve mason]

I agree with Darcy, I will not use the 550 rings with riders with short inseams, a couple other things to consider with short inseams is the depth of your seat jockey, you don't want the bottom of the jockey sitting right under the knee joint,another thing is the drop on your fenders, for shorter fender also shorten up the drop on the fender.

Steve

Hi Justin,

I never use 550 rings so I can't comment on them but I agree with Steve that about 6 1/4"s below the bar is about right for a 777 plate. You also have to keep in mind a couple of things... the height of your rider may require you to raise that height if they are short in height. You should also consider the tree you are using; some maker's trees have bars with more depth on the front pads than others and quite noticeably so. Some tree styles also have deeper bars than others, ie. a Wade. The saddle in the photo below has a 5053 plate set at about 6 1/4"s. The picture also illustrates what I mentioned in my above post of a symmetrical seat jockey that covers the opening in your flat plate rigging... the leading edge of the seat jockey covers the stitch line on the flat plate by about 3/16th's of an inch.

Darcy

[HanginH]

Thanks Darcy and Steve,

I see what you mean with the symetrical seat on your saddle Darcy and I think that by raising my rigging will definetly help me achieve a better line because I won't have to the seat jockey drop so much to try and cover the rigging hole. Also Darcy I noticed on your saddle that your rigging is put in with what look like brass rivets and I was just curious where you get them from because I have never seen them before.

I also notice that with the skirts on your saddle Darcy that they appear to be some where in the that 5-6 inch range from the bottom of your bars and I was just wondering if you ever build them smaller than that or would that be a standard size on your wade saddles. The reason I am asking is I am currently working on a wade saddle for a gal and she would like it as light as possible with small round skirts. I know that you don't want them to small but I am just not a hundred percent sure on what is considered to small. I have looked at my father in laws saddle made by Deryk Pitts and his skirts do seem a bit smaller than mine but thought that I should ask in case there is a prefernce or not.

Thanks again for all the info guys i hope that my lines on my saddles get half as good as either of yours and I would be one happy camper.

Have a good one!

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Justin,

the angle of the photo may be a bit deceiving as my skirts typically are about 4-4 1/2"s deep below the rear bar edge. The rear dees I use are 3"s from top to bottom so I'm guessing the saddle in the photo was probably just over 4"s deep. As far as how small you can make the skirts, I've made them as small as two inches below the rear bar on a single rigged saddle... It plays havoc with the overall lines of the saddle but if the aesthetics aren't too important and you have a good fitting tree, smaller skirts aren't too much of a problem. Deryk Pitts is a very good saddlemaker so if you have access to one of his saddles that have proportions you like, I'd certainly use it to take measurements from.

If you are trying to make a lightweight saddle, there are a few tricks you can combine. First, like you mentioned, you can minimize the size of your patterns. You can also use lighterweight leather such as the light and medium weight hides... Ken at Caledon Leather in Calgary usually has them in stock. You can also use narrower, half stirrup leathers and the narrowest tread stirrups that your customer finds accesptable. You might also consider an inskirt rig as well. The picture of the saddle below is one I made for a gal from the United Kingdom who wanted the lightest saddle I could make. Fully mounted that saddle weighed about 24lbs. It started with a lightweight tree, light and medium hides, fenders that were 7"s wide, an inskirt rigging, half stirrup leathers, and 2 1/2" stirrups. The customer was also only a few inches over 5 feet so trying to keep the blevins off the rigging was a challenge. The depth of the skirts was probably about 3 1/2 - 3 3/4"s deep.

The brass rivets came from Weaver's Leather in the U.S. I usually use copper but had a request for them on a saddle.

Darcy

[AdamTill]

If you are trying to make a lightweight saddle, there are a few tricks you can combine. First, like you mentioned, you can minimize the size of your patterns. You can also use lighterweight leather such as the light and medium weight hides... Ken at Caledon Leather in Calgary usually has them in stock.

Hi Darcy,

Very nice rig, I sure hope your customer was impressed.

I plan to get leather for a lightweight saddle from Ken at Caledon, especially since he's local. When you mention light or medium weight, what does that translate into in terms of weight in oz or thickness in mm? How light are you comfortable getting without a special order?

Curious where the narrower stirrups came from as well, if you don't mind.

Thanks much,

Adam

PS - nice saddle there as well, Justin - hope mine come out half as nice!

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Adam,

I'm not sure what Hermann Oak's exact specs are for light and medium weight leather but they are probably something like 11-13oz for light and 12-14oz for heavy. I definitly wouldn't go lighter than the lightweight leather that Caledon sells and if the saddle will be used regularly, I'd use a combination of light and medium weight or all medium weight. Keep in mind each saddle parts function and that will dictate if you should use the light or medium weight leather. Cantle backs, gullet covers, horn caps and wraps, skirt plugs, rear jockeys, cantle binding can all be taken from the light hide. The seat, skirts, groundseat, and stirrup leathers should come from the heavier hide. If the saddle is being used for roping, the fork cover should come from the heavier hide, if it's just a riding saddle, the lighter hide might be acceptable. You may be able to take the fenders from the butt of the lighter hide if it's a firm, heavy butt and your fender pattern isn't too big.

The 2 1/2" stirrups are referring to the tread width, so any stirrup maker can make them that width; those stirrups happened to come from Trina Weber. If you want the gap that the stirrup bolts occupy to be narrower (ie 2 1/2") take the spacer off the bolt and use a hacksaw to cut the spacer to what ever width your stirrup leathers will be.

Darcy

[AdamTill]

Thanks Darcy, much obliged.

On the width issue, I had thought that you had custom stirrups done for a 2.5" width. If it's just a matter of reducing the spacer, that's not a big deal.

Thanks again,

Adam