Long Pineapple Knot With Gaucho Interweave

[Aggiebraider]

Hey Everyone,

I am having serious trouble making a long PK with a gaucho interweave of another color. I started making a 6b 7p PK and then when I get to 11b, I cant finish it to 12. I will inevitably have two strands from the base knot that are next to each other and I cannot figure out how to split them. I know that I should just be able to continue the pattern, but for the life of me I cannot figure out the pattern to just do it in my head. I understand the PK pattern just fine to do a herringbone interweave, but the gaucho doesnt make sense to me. I am using Gail Hought's book and I think that it is missing a few steps at the end, and she is just using one color so I cant figure out how it should look with two colors.

If anyone has a book with a good explanation on how to do this with two colors and could scan it for me I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,

CW

[megabit]

Not absolutely certain but I think that just may be how that pattern works out. I was playing with a short one the other day 5p 4b and noticed the same thing, but the knot looked like it was done other than two of the same color at the end.

Mike

[entiendo]

I wonder if you are making the same mistake I did with the gaucho interweave. I spent days and days on a quirt handle and I couldn't split the parallels. It made me crazy. Once you extend the foundation knot on a gaucho it changes a little. If you look at the smaller versions in the romel reins book you will see the pattern is a little different.

Now if this isn't the trouble you are having, then I'm at a loss. A picture might help someone figure out where your problem is.

[entiendo]

I went ahead and looked up my old thread. I forgot the misery that button put me through! LOL Maybe it will help you too because I got a lot of good advice.

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=7102&hl=gaucho%20interweave&st=0

Edited May 26, 2010 by entiendo

[KnotHead]

The problem is with the base knot you started from. Here's an idea for you to try out.

Try tying the 7part 6bight casa knot as you base knot. Then put the Gaucho weave in with another color. This part will show you that the bight structure is not going to work. If you were to tie the same knot all with one color, it will work out because the bight structure is then hidden by the color of the lace, being that it is done all in one color.

The idea here is to show you that the bight structure for the 7part 6bight casa knot is both row coded and collum coded. This is why the gaucho you are trying to intermix with the rest of the knot is not working out. The gaucho bights structure sits on the same bight structure as the base knot does. It does not go outside of that. So, if you have a knot that is dividable by 2 & 3 you have a base knot that is row coded and collum coded(Dividable by both even & odd numbers)...

Based on the Ashley book of Knots Turks Head chart, I have found that these kinds of bight structures exists through out the chart in the amount found so far to be 36 times if you were to take the bight structure beyond a normal size knot.

But if you were to try to insert the Gaucho interweave after you insert the herringbone in a different color by using the base casa knot lace of the same color, you should end up with a working knot that you can be proud of. Because all you're really doing then is tying your base casa knot, then inserting the herringbone interweave, and then going back to the base casa knot, and inserting the Gaucho interweave within the base casa knot bight boundary without breaking the rules.

Hope this helps out some.

Best regards,

Brian

[megabit]

The problem is with the base knot you started from. Here's an idea for you to try out.

Wow so I was right when I said:

Not absolutely certain but I think that just may be how that pattern works out. I was playing with a short one the other day 5p 4b and noticed the same thing, but the knot looked like it was done other than two of the same color at the end.

Mike

[KnotHead]

Sorry if I trampled over your explanation megabit. I just thought that the mathematical part of the knot would give a greater scope on the base knot structure. No matter how far I dig into this particular problem, or anomaly of this knot, I find even more bight structures that wont work out unless you use the same color you tied the base knot with. Weird, I know. But it is interesting how the math works out for these particular interweaves.

Synonymously these interweaves are some of the toughest to figure out for most braiders. I know that I faced much frustration when learning the rules with these particular types of knots. But with breaking the rules in mind, you can always bend the rules in ways that will work. For instance, By taking the same base 7px6b casa and tying a type 2 PK 2pass the outter bight boundaries will change. This will produce a non-symmetrical knot, But you will achieve the final result of the knot you're looking for. It will just look a bit different than you want it to look. But as you tie the 2pass type 2 PK the knot will shift to the right, or left of the base casa knot, or top and bottom depending on how you are holding the knot.

The bight structure is being re-built by an interweave pattern and the base becomes the foundation for the new bight structure. The type 1 PK to the type 3 PK cycles will eventually run out of room because the knot itself is being built to the inside and will eventually not have enough base knot to expand the passes. It does run out of room, or there is a limit to how many passes can be done. It has taken me quite some time to grasp all of this myself. But by pressing through the mid-night oils and many books(some in Spanish) and lots of math, the picture became clear to me. I bet I have spent at least a year off and on studying this topic. It would seem to be endless. But I do enjoy it.

Best regards,

Brian

[entiendo]

great explanation knothead! I want to try that gaucho with a herringbone. You don't have a picture of one do you? I saw a lovely design somewhere of a gaucho, wish I could remember where it was.

[megabit]

No problem Brian, I was just happy I was right. I was certain of it but I did think I was. Your explanation was much better than my "that is just the way it is". Even if they were both right. ;D I always like to understand why of something. With braiding, or poker or many other things the reason generally comes down to math.

Mike

[KnotHead]

I made a little pictorial sample of what is being explained. I hope that this will build a much broader scope for any who see it.

Best regards,

Brian...