Building a ladies seat

[JAM]

I'm about to build my first saddle and, being a woman, I want it to fit me well. I've read that some of you are really good at building a "ladies seat" and I'd like to know what differences/specifics I should be incorporating into my seat to make it work better for me than the average men's saddle? Is this info already written somewhere or incorporated into any makers' videos? Thanks in advance for any advice.

[David Genadek]

I'm about to build my first saddle and, being a woman, I want it to fit me well. I've read that some of you are really good at building a "ladies seat" and I'd like to know what differences/specifics I should be incorporating into my seat to make it work better for me than the average men's saddle? Is this info already written somewhere or incorporated into any makers' videos? Thanks in advance for any advice.

This is really a matter of undestanding what shape it has to be which is pretty tough to put into words so I will tell you what I did to get a handle on it. First you need to read this article .

Since this is for you the job is pretty simple you can add leather to the groiund work and carve it out and sit in it and adjust it until it meets your needs or you can make a mold of your behind. To do that get yourself a hunk of fairly soft foam and some molding material like the fiberglass casting material they use for casts or plaster kind will work too. Make a sheet of the material large enough to capture your rear and legs. Stick the foam on the horse followed by the sheet of casting material which that by then you have wet. Cut a couple of holes in a garbage bag and slip it on. You can do this in the nude(which is better for being able to find the seat bones) or you can do it over your jeans. Sit on the horse in the position you want to be in on top of the foam and casting material until it sets. Get off and then you have a mold that you can shape the seat too keeping in mind you will be adding several more layers of thickness after the ground work.

David Genadek

[okiwen]

I have now found how to get rich at this whole thing. I am offering nude butt mold services. Your amazing.

I am sure that there will be a few that will want to take advantage of my professionalism, but I'll just have to deal with that.

Edited April 27, 2008 by okiwen

[JRedding]

David, I hate to ask but I gotta know, have you ever actually gotten anyone to do that ?

[David Genadek]

I have now found how to get rich at this whole thing. I am offering nude butt mold services. Your amazing.

I am sure that there will be a few that will want to take advantage of my professionalism, but I'll just have to deal with that.

Well I had studied female anatomy since my youth so it seemed a natural progression. Here is a link to help you on your new found profession.

David Genadek

[David Genadek]

David, I hate to ask but I gotta know, have you ever actually gotten anyone to do that ?

Yes when I did custom work I molded everyone that ordered a saddle. For orders they had thier pants on. I only striped them down for research purposes as I wanted to get clear impression of the seat bones. I knew the females would be wider but I wanted to know how much. Here is a picture of a few they are old and well traveled.

David Genadek

[JAM]

Wow! You are so very helpful! Actually molding a seat is about as specific as one can get. I'll have to try it and see. Thanks!

[bruce johnson]

For once, I really don't know what to say. Even if I could talk the customers into it, I see another issue. Most of mine are riding horses I doubt would still be in the same zipcode while you approached them naked hiking up a garbage bag loincloth. If they did get mounted, that would be a tough one to explain to the malpractice attorney. Probably safer for me to just have them sit in the groundwork and go off that.

[Hilly]

I have now found how to get rich at this whole thing. I am offering nude butt mold services. Your amazing.

I am sure that there will be a few that will want to take advantage of my professionalism, but I'll just have to deal with that.

LOL! You SURE you wanna do that?! LOL!

[Tosch]

Well I had studied female anatomy since my youth ......David Genadek

GREAT, LOL, I nearly spilled my morning coffee...

Tosch

[mulefool]

I can't think of a guy who HASN'T studied female anatomy since his youth!

[particle]

Ahh, the one class I got an 'A' in....

There is always swimsuits and/or really thin jogging shorts.

[JAM]

I think in my jeans will be close enough

[Tosch]

JAM, you might also want to look here: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=1952 and also want to follow the cross-reference you can find there. I would think you will find valuable information in the discussions there.

Tosch

Edited April 28, 2008 by Tosch

[grumpyguy]

I really like what I've heard tree and saddle makers say, "This is not rocket science." (While wiping coffee from my screen and keyboard, dang, it's going to be all sticky for a month.) I think we really should ask ourselves how close is close enough. Unless we plan on alot of "nude saddle time" jeans ON should be close enough. But I'll say this, woke me up this morning! If someone wants to take thier pants off for me to fit a saddle to thier behind, I think I'll join the horses in the different zip code thing, Bruce! LOL! Might save death by jealous, what is it now? Oh yeah, "significant other!" (For those of you outside the U.S. where you can still say things without fear of offense, it means, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, husband, spouse... well you get the picture.) I can see it now, trying to explain, "What? I was just professionally fitting a client for a new saddle." My wife ain't buyin' and I'm certain I would be packin up my traps (stuff) on the wrong end of my favorite shotgun! LOL!

Hey though really, another option might be those "spandex bike shorts" I see people wear riding thier bikes along the road. (Probably less fun for those on the singles scene but safer for us married types.) That way everyones covered, literally! Ha,Ha!

[JAM]

Thanks, Tosch - your link helped. I started this entertaining thread to find out how a ladies' seat differed from a men's seat - where one narrowed it and so forth. "Just sit in it" doesn't help as much as you'd think. Had a great conversation with Rod Nikkel who explained quite a lot, about making the ground seat flat under my pin bones and then dropping off quickly, and building up the center between thighs to make it feel narrower and more stable to a woman's anatomy - which shouldn't affect the close contact much, just give me a narrower feel so I don't feel like I'm sitting on a beach ball. I've got a direction now. And this was fun - thanks guys!

[grumpyguy]

JAM what Rod told you is absolutly true. (It ought to be, he is a very experienced tree maker with years behind him, and we would do well to listen.) Men's seat areas are flat in comparision to womens which are more rounded. (That's kind of a Duh, everyone knows that thing for me to say.) The narrower bars with the quickly decending sides and the more pronounced higher rise in front of the seat do alot to stablize the rider. I of course being a man have found similar seats an advantage while riding rough and difficult country at breakneck speeds. (The cows and calves never do what you want, go where you want and whatever they do they do it fast.) It does not allow for the same "close contact" so popular and as defined by many of todays horsemen but many accomplished riders were more than successful in riding horses prior to the birth of that "new concept." (That is only my opinion. I think people get on a soap box regarding alot of issues and then get dogmatic about it, most good saddlemakers were making "close contact" or really well fitted saddles long before the "New Concept" was conceived and coined into a phrase. I've even seen a few old west coast saddle with the skirts cutout for the better and easier leg ques.) My wife has the same complaint sitting in most saddles. The instability problem has ruined riding for her and now she won't ride anymore. (Even some vehicle seats are the same for her.) Of interest to you would be the discussion about the "Lady Wade." There were a couple of saddle makers who seemed to really know what they were talking about ground seats and thier insight might be helpful as well.

It all comes down to this for the treemaker and saddlemaker, you must fit the saddle to the horse to avoid damage and injury, (Treemaker's main job) thus keeping riding somewhat safe for both horse and rider. Then you must fit the saddle to the rider to keep riding relatively pain free and fun. (Treemaker and saddlemakers job.) David's fitting as he describes, is a way to make sure the rider fits thier saddle and there is alot to be said for the thought put into that. The trick is for a craftsman to take the information gained from the casting and apply it correctly to the seat when constructing the saddle. I know many experienced and talented saddlemakers can make a great fitting saddle without the casting. Really in the end it is the client who must be pleased with an attractive and well fitted saddle how ever it is done.

Edited April 29, 2008 by grumpyguy

[Denise]

JAM,

Here is a link to another old thread on this subject. Hopefully it will give you more information to help you out.

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=1909

[JAM]

Thanks, Denise - this was exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.

[David Genadek]

I certainly agree that you shouldn't need to always do the but molds I haven't done one in years because the shape is set in my mind now. However, I would urge anyone getting started to go through the process. Once you get it done set it on a tree. Then go read that other thread and you will know who gets it and who doesn't. If your still a little fuzzy then read JRedding's post. "The only way to narrow a ground seat is to build upward" You will see this when you make the mold. You will also see that narrowing the bar does nothing but create dead airspace, My bars are almost 5"wide under the seat.

There is a common perception that getting your rear closer to the back creates close contact. I worked for years trying to set people right on the spine. I was building a lot riening saddles at the time and the rieners were telling me they wanted close contact and a nice deep seat. They kept telling me to get them closser to the spine. I got frustrated one day and built up under the strainer and to my surprise they sat in it and said Yessss. I've been doing it that way ever since. I didn't fully inderstand it until a I did the butt molds though.

Everyone is talking narrow here but the mold will show you that you need to think wide to narrow not just narrow. A womens seat needs to be wider in the rear or the shape will get between the seat bones and pry them apart. It feels to them like it is to wide but the problem is caused because it is too narrow. Seat bones are wider on females to allow for child birth. The hip socket is placed further back on the pelvis and the leg exits the body at more of a forward angle for the same reason. What that means to the ground work is that it needs to be wider in the back and then needs to narrow more quickly. Women need to ride with more bend to their leg than a man or they will wreck thier back.

Your sitting on all the answers you will ever need about ground word.

David Genadek

[RyanCope]

Naked butt molds? Come on. It's not April fools day. Sounds more like a pre-cursor to an expensive divorce and/ or a mid-life crisis. Was it more difficult to get the men to strip naked and sit on a horse in a garbage bag, or the women?

Ryan Cope

[David Genadek]

Naked butt molds? Come on. It's not April fools day. Sounds more like a pre-cursor to an expensive divorce and/ or a mid-life crisis. Was it more difficult to get the men to strip naked and sit on a horse in a garbage bag, or the women?

Ryan Cope

I did the naked ones in Sedona so every one was pretty open to it for scientific purposes.

David Genadek

[Hidemechanic]

As to carving a gender specific seat for me has never been too much of an issue only because I have been able to have the customer sit in the seat as I was carving it. That doesn't mean I can do a good gender specific seat for someone that can't sit for me.

Now, I will publicly admit that I do have a hard time carving a generic seat. That is, a saddle built to sell to now one in particular.

I also have been lucky enough to have my wife be able to sit my seats while I carve them, and she usually manages to help me get a seat that everyone likes who sits it.

I can't however carve a seat for myself to save my aching butt. But that's probably due to the fact that I have a wierd ars butt.

As David said, and I have found, when you keep in mind the angles of thigh bones as they lay in the seat it becomes easier to see where to carve. My problem is in fine tuning if I don't have a client on site. I get nervous if I have to make a best guess, but I've never had any complaints.

Now a subject that I have held off talking about is "close contact", because I didn't want to come off sounding snobbish or smart ars. I now see that it is a perspective subject.

There are certain terms or catch fraizes that customers latch onto, turn it into an issue that isn't one. (take it to an extreem that may not even apply to their situation)

My thought is that close contact is more aptly applied to the bars and the horse's back than the seat of the saddle. Yes, many commercial saddles tend to leave too much material in their seats and between that extra hight and poor fitting bars a rider can feel perched on top the horse. But in fact, a custom saddle builder can only get a rider so close to the horse's back before he has to change the design of the tree. Any way you look at it there is a certain amount of wood and leather between the rider and the horse.

That being said I again agree with DG that building up a bit in the center line of the seat liftes the rider away from that feeling of sitting on a 2x12. BUT the lift is neglegable as it relates to distance between the rider and the horse.

Early on when I was trying to figure out a fit problem for a gal it occoured to me that the way we are built, we have an amount of soft tissue between our seat bones and to avoid that sitting on a board, prying apart feeling, there needs to be some material right up the middle.Not a lot,just not flat.

The gal in question mentioned the problem, and I took out my wallet and told her to raise bit off the seat and I slid the wallet just to her pubis and she set back in place and said,"That's it". From then on I not only smiled every time I opened my wallet,( not really, I don't even carry a wallet) but I also paid more attention to shaping that part of the seat.

JAM, what I do when fine tuning to a customer, is let them sit the seat long enough to feel high spots, flat spots, bad spots and point them out, I skive them down untill they don't feel any spots and the seat feels cumfy to them. Usually I already have the plain of the thigh bone carved right, then fine tune the seat bone issues.

I think with all the info you are gleaning from here you will have a better idea what you are shooting for on your first ground seat. It wasn't uncommon for me to tare out a ground seat and start over with my first couple I did.

By the way, I don't know if any one has passed this tip on to you, but when you start carving a seat it is helpful to shop often, set the tree on the front bar tips(on a table or draw down) and lean the the bottom of the rear of the bars against you, with eyes closed use both hands on either side of the ground work to 'see' your progress with your hands. Since this is almost an 'R' rated topic, my mentor told me "It's a sexual thing" at least it looks like it. You'll be suprized how much better you can pick out oddities left and right, front and back, and feel the contours better than just looking at it.

Gotta keep things interesting,right?

Best wishes,GH

[Todd]

This thread has single handedly made the effort involved in becoming a member of Leatherworker.Net well worth it. i will never again be able to size a seat for a woman with a straight face. Thanks all.

[JAM]

You're welcome, Todd! And thank you Hidemechanic (and everyone else). My lifelong background is jumpers, so when I started riding western three years ago, in standard commercial saddles, I felt very "perched" and the first thing that came to mind was "close contact" - I want to be part of my horse again, not sitting way up in the air just waiting to be dumped at the first spook or crow-hop or happy-dance. I've since come to realize that the "perched" feeling is precisely because my saddle doesn't fit me, not because of the inches between me and my horse. So, with all the help I've gotten here, my next saddle is going to fit me as well as my old jumping saddle.