Help for a novice horse owner

[jennifer]

This is the first forum I have found that seems to have the expertice and willingness to help that may keep me from total frustration.

I have a four year old QH mare, foundation stock, who is exceptionally wide. This is the first horse that I have owned and I got a second hand saddle when she was in training a year and a half ago. It's a heavy, old saddle built on a semi-QH tree with no maker identification.

She has bulked up and this thing sits on top of her like a hat. I have been trying various saddles on her, but everything I've tried except for a 35 year old Billy Cook leaves large dry circles on either side of her withers.

I've tried a Crates, a Coates a Dale Chavez, one from Corriente Saddle Co. plus a couple of others.

I want a saddle that fits her and is within a reasonable budget ($2500 - $3000.00 max). I don't care if it is fancy, plan on using her for pleasure and trail - just for my own enjoyment. Most of the people at the ranch I am at are using cheap production light weight saddles and from the little I know about saddles, I think I would prefer to spend as much as I can manage and get the best saddle I can afford for my girl.

Saw a nice Leddy on CowDogSaddles.com, but he won't allow returns except for a store credit and although he says it will fit a wide horse, so has everyone else who let me try their saddles.

I have tried doing the wither tracing, but am not at all confident that I got the placement right and would love to have someone help me, but don't know where to look for a knowledgeable saddle fitter. The lady at our local feed store has offered to do a fitting, but I've am less than confident in her equine knowledge. The other woman I know who claims to be a saddle fitter said to go ahead and get the coates and not to worry about the dry patches, they only matter if they are small.

I am getting thoroughly frustrated and confused. Never thought getting a quality saddle that fit would be this hard.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I'm in San Marcos California.

Thanks,

Jennifer

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Jennifer,

Your problem, unfortunately, is a very common one. There are a number of factors in play. The big one is that fitting a saddle to a horse is like buying women’s clothing - the numbers and terms really mean nothing at all between makers and you have to try it on to see how it fits. That is just the bald truth. Within one maker’s trees, the semi-QH will be narrower and have a steeper angle than the QH, while the full QH is wider and has a flatter angle than the QH. But between makers, there is no correlation, and hand made tree makers don’t even use the terms. Also these terms say nothing about the amount of rock, the twist or the crown (amount of roundness) on the bottom of the bar, yet these all affect the fit.

The fit for the horse is basically, though not totally, determined by the tree, and most saddle companies don’t tell you where they get their trees. So you might be trying a bunch of saddles with different names on them that are built on the same trees and you wouldn’t know it. And some production companies call their trees “hand made” because they do have human beings putting together the pieces and sewing on rawhide. So what’s a customer to do? Your frustration is based on a very real problem.

First off, cost of saddle does not necessarily translate into its quality. For the price range you quote, you can get either a middle to upper middle level production saddle built on a production tree, or you can get a hand made saddle by an individual craftsman if you know where to look, but most commonly built on a production tree at this price. Bump that price to $3200 to $3500 and you can get yourself a hand made tree in a plain saddle built specifically for you from some incredible craftsmen (a number of whom are on this forum). Or you can drive down the road to a western store and spend a lot more for a production saddle on a production tree, often the same tree the lower prices saddles are built on. Since most people don’t know the difference they just keep buying more and more expensive production saddles trying to get something better when they could actually spend less money and get something truly hand made for them. The catch is - you need to wait. For some reason those tree makers take months to get a tree to the saddle maker, and the experienced and good saddle makers have a bunch of saddles on order ahead of you. At the store, you can take it home today. As far as I see it that, plus lack of knowledge on the part of the customer, is what sells the top end production saddles. So there is the trade off.

I have a four year old QH mare, foundation stock, who is exceptionally wide.

But back to your horse. Your description puts a picture into my mind of what your horse looks like, but is what is in my mind really the shape of your horse? This is one of the primary problems facing saddle and tree makers: As of yet, there is no way to easily communicate shape of a horse’s back, though it may be coming if Dennis Lane’s system works as it seems it could. And now we have digital cameras, etc. that make sending pictures so much easier which is really helpful to truly know the shape you are trying to fit. With your horse standing square and her head at a normal working level, could you post some pictures of your horse? These are what we would like to see: 1) From the side, showing the whole horse including her feet, preferably with a person in the picture 2) from the side a closer view of her back including the front of her shoulder to her hip area 3) angled from about 45 degrees from the front and 4) from the back so we get a few different views of her back where the saddle will fit and 5) from behind but a bit above so we had see down the midline. Putting tape across the back at different places and along the side of her back about 3 1/2" down from her topline also helps as it lets us see the curves better. Shadows and some colors make it hard to see the change in contour in some pictures and the tape helps this. Picture 1 tells us about levelness of back, length of back and how the front leg and shoulder line up with the withers, as well as giving us a visual gauge on the size of the horse if you tell us how tall the person is. Picture 2 shows us more closely the musculature of the back and the shape we are trying to fit. Pictures 3 and 4 give us more information about the amount of rock in the back and how the shoulders join into the rest of the back. Picture 5 gives us a visual on the width and angle of the back and how that changes from front to back (twist). These types of pictures plus the different methods of doing back drawings are all helpful for a person who can’t see the horse to figure out what shape they really are.

Just to be clear, once we all see these pictures, I don’t think anyone will be able to tell you to “go get this saddle or this tree and it will work”. Nor is Leatherworker’s purpose to have individual horse owners posting pictures of their horses trying to figure out saddle fit. Like I started out saying, you have to try them on to really know how they fit. But in asking for these pictures, I am hoping to be able to point out what areas we look at when we are trying to figure out saddle fit and get other’s ideas on what they look for. Your question is a great platform for this discussion. Thank you for asking it.

[bruce johnson]

Jennifer,

As you will find if you are here long, my posts are usually a bit longer too. Thanks for the questions, you are not alone. As the Nikkels have posted, many of the major production saddles regardless of cost are made on mostly production trees from 2-3 makers. It is entirely possible that all the saddles you tried are on trees with similar bar pattterns and measurements. I can understand the old Billy Cook fitting that type horse. They did back then, until the Doc Bar influence really took over.

I can share your concern with the tack shop person fitting your horse for a saddle. Most everything they have may be the same bar patterns ans spreads as mentioned. I have seen a tackshop employee actually give the following advice. "Quarter horse bars are for quarter horses. The semi quarterhorse bars are for breeds like the Paints and Appaloosas, because most of them are half quarterhorse now you know". You can't argue with logic like that!

Regarding fitters, probably a step up but a concern there too. Are they going to be able to tell you what will fit, or just tell you what you have doesn't fit? Are they going to be able to tell you what to order and how to order it? Some are good, and some are self-titled fitters selling special pads or things that have not been proven by anyone but their anecdotal experience. If they have something like a pad that will make any saddle fit, it won't.

I think the jury is still kind of out on the dry spot deal. I am not sure of the significance of small vs. large dry spots. Is the hair messed up? Does the horse get sore? Does it swell up a few minutes after unsaddling? What kind of padding? What rigging position(here we go again)? How long do you ride and what do you do? Level ground or hills?

It has been reported that the production saddles (and by relation the trees in them) acceptably fit about 80% (or more in another place I read) of the horses out there. Whether those numbers are high or low is open to debate and depends on defintions of acceptable, stuff like that. I don't think that any tree maker from the bottom enders to the top are intentionally making a tree that will hurt a horse. Some are stuck in the past, and others are ahead of themselves though. If all of the Circle Ys or TexTans are hurting a bunch of horses and they start getting them back, you can bet that their tree suppliers are going to hear about it. Likewise with the Leddys, Larry Coates, Dale Martins, Cactus, or Dale Chavez. As Nikkels said, there are different quality levels in trees, and saddles can be a price point purchase for a lot of people. They sell those Billy Shaw saddles made up on ebay for less money than a good handmade tree. It is up to the saddlemaker to decide whose trees they are going to use, and what they are going to charge. There are some guys sticking $600 trees in $1800 saddles, and guys using $150 trees in $5000 saddles. All in what their comfort level is with their treemaker.

My guess is if you have been through the saddles you have, the Leddy may not be any different. You have tried the ones that work for a lot of people. Your horse may well fall into the "average isn't going to work" percentage. That's OK, and you have realized that you need some help getting one to fit. You are probably going to have to go to someone to determine what combination is going to work. Some are comfortable eyeballing the horse, others will do everything from bent wires to casts of the back. The Dennis Lane card system is pretty easy to do. It may take something as simple as wider spread or flatter bars, or a whole setup of spread/angle/shape of the bars to fit your horse. I am sure you will get other opinions here too. Good discussion points and thanks again for bringing them to us.

[jennifer]

Thank you for the advice. I will take pictures today.

Jennifer

[jennifer]

Here are the pictures of my mare.

Jennifer

[jennifer]

A picture of my almost 3 year old. She'll be the next saddle project.

Jennifer

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Jennifer,

Thank you for posting the pictures. To start let me say that I am not writing this treatise because we know everything and have all the right answers. But I do want to let you know the areas we check when fitting a saddle from the viewpoint of a tree maker. Hopefully some of what we say will help you as you look and maybe some of the others on this forum that know a lot more about what is available “over the counter” so to speak will be able to give you some suggestions too.

First, our “read” on your horse: The overall impression is that your mare is not a big horse but, as you said, extremely wide and flat backed side to side. She looks to have “average” rock in her back, meaning that rock won’t be something you especially need to be concerned about. She is quite muscular in the “wither pocket” area behind the shoulders which also are not overly flat and will need watching. She has lower withers so gullet clearance won’t be a concern. She is not super “downhill” in build, which is good, especially as she is still only four and will continue to level out some more over the next couple of years. (As an aside, there is no formal definition of “downhill”, so people define it based on different criteria depending on what they are trying to evaluate. As tree makers, we want to know how a saddle will sit on the horse, so we look at the levelness of the side of the horse where the bars are going to be sitting. We realize that changes in muscling and fat will change the shape of the back, but how level it is will basically stay the same, so that is how we define the term for our use.) Being as barrel shaped as she is, you need to accept that she will not hold a saddle in place quite as well as a more A shaped horse does, but with a good fitting saddle you will not need to be constantly readjusting the saddle either. And she nicely falls into a body type of horse that, while not super common, is not rare either. So there is hope!!

Going back to our basic two rules - #1) don’t dig in anywhere and #2) have as much surface area as possible within the bounds of rule #1 - and comparing them to the factors that affect fit, here is what we set as we build trees and what you can check for as much as possible:

1.) Spread or width between the bars. Your horse is very wide and as such can handle a lot of width between the bars. There are a number of different ways different makers state this, but on her you will be looking for the widest spread not only at the front of the fork at the gullet but also at the back of the fork and at the cantle. Widening the front without widening the back by the same proportion will lead to problems, so check the underside of a number of saddles of different “sizes” and compare.

2.) Angle of the bars. This one will be very important for your horse as she is very flat. If the bars are too angled, you will break Rule #1 by having the equivalent of the legs of an A digging into the sideways C of her back. This is why your semi-QH tree is perched on top of her. Again with her you will want the widest angle. Production trees usually correlate the spread and the angle of the bars, so as the width between the bars increases so does the angle. Thus the “Full QH trees” have the widest spread and the flattest angle that each maker produces, and this is what you will need for your horse. When checking a saddle on her, run your hand under the bottom edge of the bar to make sure it is not digging into her. You can’t really check the top half of the bar on a finished saddle very well except by trying to run your hand down the channel in the front and the especially the back. What you are looking for is that most of the bar width is contacting with just the edges lifting off. A tree that is too narrow or has too narrow an angle will not contact along the top section of the bar.

3.) Gullet clearance won’t be a problem with her low withers. The old “two fingers clearance” rule is a good one to go by. Extra clearance isn’t a problem.

4.) Bar length should not be a huge concern either. She is not a big horse so you don’t want really long bars. Just make sure when you check a saddle that the back bar tips lift off her loin a bit. If they contact when the saddle is not weighted they will dig in when you sit in it. Also check to see if the skirts are blocked well – formed to conform to the shape of the bottom of the tree, including curving away at the edges of the bars - and not left as just a flat piece of heavy leather which sticks out front and back of the bar. If they are not blocked well then the skirts can actually hold the tree up off the horse at the back or more commonly rub the loin.

5.) Length of the front bar tip. When you first put on a saddle, set it a little ahead of where you think it will end up and then shake it from side to side. It will slide back into position without you pushing it back. Then check under the front bar tips. It is hard to explain because the shoulder blades can slide under those bar tips a bit and be OK if they are shaped properly and give enough relief. So just because the shoulder blade seems to be touching the bar tips it doesn’t mean that it is a problem. But what does the front of that bar tip feel like? Is it blunt like the end of a 2 x 4 or curved? It doesn’t have to have a long length of curve, but it needs to be enough. Her movement will tell you what “enough” is. Also, it is important that the skirts be blocked to follow that curve. The tree could have enough relief built in but if you have thick leather going straight forward (and a lot of saddles sold today are unfortunately made this way) then the skirts will rub on the shoulders and cause you problems even if the tree is OK.

6.) Rock, again, shouldn’t be a big problem with her. Feel under the bar to make sure that there is no gapping under the center of the bar (bridging) and that the back bar tips don’t dig in. You also shouldn’t be able to “rock” the tree on her back like a rocking chair.

7.) Crown or profile of the bottom of the bar needs to be checked for her. Because she is so round, you don’t want a round profile to the bottom of the bar or it will be like trying to get two tennis balls to match in shape and you will have too much pressure in the center of the bar. There is no measurement as such for the amount of crown but you can compare a bit by checking the underside of different saddles. You are looking for the flattest bar side to side for your horse.

8.) Twist. Rarely do we find this to be a big issue and I wouldn’t expect it to be a problem with your horse either. It is also not easily checked in a finished saddle.

Lots of words to say that your horse fits into the muscular Quarter Horse style of body build which is what the Full QH style of fit was designed for. However, as we said in the our first post, one “full QH” tree will fit very differently than another “full QH” tree from a different tree maker, so you still have to try them on, ride them a bit and see how solid they are on your horse (a good fitting saddle will not move around) and if there are any pressure points.

We’re curious as to how what we have said matches up with other tree and saddle makers opinions. And hopefully others here who have used more of the production trees will be able to help you compare between brands.

[JRedding]

Jennifer, there's not much to add to all thats been said, you've gotten a lot of good information about saddles, trees, what's available and what to expect. The only thing I've noticed that I'd point out if you were my customer and I'm not intending to be critical or offend you in any way so if I do I'll apologize in advance. You said the mare is a four year old and she was started a year and a half ago so I'm assuming she's just coming four this spring. Mam, that mare's too well cared for, she's packing a lot of extra weight, I only bring it up because you've asked for input into finding a saddle that fits and the fact that she's been eating too well for the amount of work shes doing is a factor in getting a saddle to fit and fit well. Some may disagree with me about whether she is or she isn't but It's safe to say if she went to cow camp for thirty days she'd come home a different looking animal. As Rod and Denise said "a good fitting saddle will not move around" and her weight is going to make that tough to acheive. I'm not suggesting you starve on her she's just heavy for her age. It's not just to get a saddle to fit it's about her overall health. Horses are just like people, we've all been told people who carry extra weight especially when their young tend to have problems with their knees, feet, and sometimes if circumstances are right after a long time of being overweight it can be a factor in just plain dropping dead from a heart condition. And horses are no different. I'm only saying that mare will be easier to find a saddle for and more comfortable under it if she dropped a little weight. Again I apoligize if my input has offended you and I'm not insulting you as a horse owner in any way, in fact I think your too good a horse owner, I'm just trying to be honest with you about something I think will help in your search for a good saddle.

[David Genadek]

My perspective of what would need to happen with the tree differs greatly from Rods due to one factor and that is where I would be trying to place you the rider. Here is a link to another forum where this point is being discussed. You should understand that where you want to sit should be one of the first questions you should ask in regards to fitting a saddle as it changes everything form the tree building perspective.

I would view this horse as being to the extreme side of the down hill spectrum. Perhaps it will level some but looking at where the neck ties in I wouldn't count on much. The yellow line on the attached picture is approximately where the spine is on this horse. As a rider you will need to learn to support this conformation.

David Genadek

[jennifer]

No offence taken, I am a novice owner and my mare is suffering the learning curve. I have cut her food intake considerably, but exercize has been a problem throughout the winter. My long work hours, short days, fire, rain and holidays took too big of a toll. I'm changing jobs on Monday, cutting 2 1/2 hours commute time from my daily routine, which should help my horse. Now it is time for me to chew on all this information, figure out what to do, find a saddle and get riding!

Jennifer, there's not much to add to all thats been said, you've gotten a lot of good information about saddles, trees, what's available and what to expect. The only thing I've noticed that I'd point out if you were my customer and I'm not intending to be critical or offend you in any way so if I do I'll apologize in advance. You said the mare is a four year old and she was started a year and a half ago so I'm assuming she's just coming four this spring. Mam, that mare's too well cared for, she's packing a lot of extra weight, I only bring it up because you've asked for input into finding a saddle that fits and the fact that she's been eating too well for the amount of work shes doing is a factor in getting a saddle to fit and fit well. Some may disagree with me about whether she is or she isn't but It's safe to say if she went to cow camp for thirty days she'd come home a different looking animal. As Rod and Denise said "a good fitting saddle will not move around" and her weight is going to make that tough to acheive. I'm not suggesting you starve on her she's just heavy for her age. It's not just to get a saddle to fit it's about her overall health. Horses are just like people, we've all been told people who carry extra weight especially when their young tend to have problems with their knees, feet, and sometimes if circumstances are right after a long time of being overweight it can be a factor in just plain dropping dead from a heart condition. And horses are no different. I'm only saying that mare will be easier to find a saddle for and more comfortable under it if she dropped a little weight. Again I apoligize if my input has offended you and I'm not insulting you as a horse owner in any way, in fact I think your too good a horse owner, I'm just trying to be honest with you about something I think will help in your search for a good saddle.

[jennifer]

I have been confused by your placement of the spine, but I think I got where your coming from. This picure may help clarify for others. Still not sure how you place the front of the backbone based on the outside of the horse, but I get the general idea.

Jennifer

My perspective of what would need to happen with the tree differs greatly from Rods due to one factor and that is where I would be trying to place you the rider. Here is a link to another forum where this point is being discussed. You should understand that where you want to sit should be one of the first questions you should ask in regards to fitting a saddle as it changes everything form the tree building perspective.

I would view this horse as being to the extreme side of the down hill spectrum. Perhaps it will level some but looking at where the neck ties in I wouldn't count on much. The yellow line on the attached picture is approximately where the spine is on this horse. As a rider you will need to learn to support this conformation.

David Genadek

[JRedding]

Jennifer, I'm glad you took that so well, some don't. That mare's still real young, ride her into shape and let her finish growing before you overdiagnos anything and panick. Horses that young often look high in the butt, six or eight months ago she likely didn't One old rancher around here thats raised more colts than most always said colts grow one end at a time and if you watch close their high in the butt and then their front end catches up and then their high in the butt again until their front end catches up. Just out of curiosity do you know how to measure her and see how much growth she has left? Horses are just like kids they grow and mature at their own pace. There's nothing wrong with that mare some time and a lot of wet saddleblankets won't cure. Stick with it get her out of the arenas and round pens, put some miles on her and enjoy her while you're saddle shopping.

[timjtodd]

I would have to agree with JRedding. Knock at least 100 lbs off the mare and you'll be looking at a whole different back to fit. Granted you'll still probably need a saddle that is pretty wide where the bars meet the fork at the base of the gullet, but without all that extra "flesh" you'll have a much better chance of finding a saddle that fits. You might want to do the same with your three year old as she looks like she's packing extra weight too.

T

Edited May 7, 2008 by timjtodd

[bruce johnson]

Jennifer,

To get this back on track, you still have to fit bars to the back of your mare. That is the first order of business. Or the first order of business after she gets into shape whichever way you approach it. I'm with Jim, I'd get her in shape and then approach it. I think we all agree that she is built a little downhill. Picture angles and such can make that look one way or the other, but she probably won't shrink much in hind leg length, and might gain a little in front legs, will fill in and tighten up, but at four those growth plates are all but closed. You have what you have, and the lines down her side wherever you place them are going to be downhill. That is part of her, and a ton (no pun intended) of horses are that way. I've got one, and so have most people who have been around. People ride a lot of them and do just fine. The most square inches of bar on her with the least bridging and no edges digging in will fit her the best. That is the simple answer. The harder answer is - that is done with bar shape, spread, and angles. That has to be determined. What maker does to the topside is somewhat dependent on the bottom. Not always. but mostly.

David,

I have been following a lot of what you have written and on your website for at least a year and a half. Some I understand, and some I don't. I know you have some other ideas than many tree makers. I have seen the line drawings, but would be interested in seeing pictures of where your trees differ, and where you position them on the live horse. That would probably clear up a lot of the confusion. My seats generally have the same or more scoop in the side profile as the ones on your website, and really are not a lot different than many other handmakers. We may all be sitting pretty much in the same place? Maybe start a new topic to keep this one on track. I have to laugh on the painting. I am glad I wasn't a knight in 1500. If the live horse was bogged down that much in the back as in the painting, I am not sure my ride would have held up long enough to get to the battle, let alone pack me through it. I wonder how many of those mounted knights ended up in the infantry pretty early in the fight.

[jennifer]

This has been a great learning experience!

What I am hearing is that I need to get Sunny in shape, but to get her in shape I need to get her a saddle.

From what Rod and Denise Nikkel wrote the main concerns for Sunny is the width between the bars both at the front and back of the saddle and that the angle of the bars and that the profile of the bottom of the saddle be flat. The other concerns dealt with the skirts rubbing the loin or the bar tips causing the skirts to rub the shoulders.

From some of the pms I've gotten and what I've read on the forum it seems that I will need to stretch the budget to go with a custom built saddle, but if I stay with a plain saddle my husband won't need to go hungry too long to make up the difference. May cut Sunny back and throw that extra into the budget as well.

It sounds like some production trees may fit her, if it is the right one and the saddle maker knows how to keep the underside flat the bar tips curved and blocks the skirts.

Still not quite sure what would be done differently for the "downhill" build.

What are your recommendations? Production or custom tree?

Do you know of any saddles for sale that you believe would be a good fit for the horse?

If not do you have any recommendations of saddle makers that don't have too long of a wait time?

Do you believe I should wait for the custom saddle till she has some work and finishes growing? (She was 4 years old on May 1.)

If so what would you recommend using in the meantime?

What about fitting the saddle to the rider? When I rode a lot trail horses back in the 80s each horse had a saddle. We rode whatever fit the horse. When I rode english 3 gait, 5 gait and hunter it was always lessons and you were handed the saddle by the instructor. From what I have read it seems that I would probably be a 15 or 15 1/2. 5'6 163 lbs, but unlike most women I am more of an upside down pear, size 8 pants, size 12 top, 21 inch thigh. Anything else you need to know?

How about saddle style. Most of what I have tried lately have been wade style saddles. I think what we rode back in the day would have been what I have seen called low association style trees. To me, I felt pretty balanced in either type. What are your preferences for basic trail riding?

I know, I am a glutten - still want more information!

Thanks,

Jennifer

.

Jennifer,

To get this back on track, you still have to fit bars to the back of your mare. That is the first order of business. Or the first order of business after she gets into shape whichever way you approach it. I'm with Jim, I'd get her in shape and then approach it. I think we all agree that she is built a little downhill. Picture angles and such can make that look one way or the other, but she probably won't shrink much in hind leg length, and might gain a little in front legs, will fill in and tighten up, but at four those growth plates are all but closed. You have what you have, and the lines down her side wherever you place them are going to be downhill. That is part of her, and a ton (no pun intended) of horses are that way. I've got one, and so have most people who have been around. People ride a lot of them and do just fine. The most square inches of bar on her with the least bridging and no edges digging in will fit her the best. That is the simple answer. The harder answer is - that is done with bar shape, spread, and angles. That has to be determined. What maker does to the topside is somewhat dependent on the bottom. Not always. but mostly.

David,

I have been following a lot of what you have written and on your website for at least a year and a half. Some I understand, and some I don't. I know you have some other ideas than many tree makers. I have seen the line drawings, but would be interested in seeing pictures of where your trees differ, and where you position them on the live horse. That would probably clear up a lot of the confusion. My seats generally have the same or more scoop in the side profile as the ones on your website, and really are not a lot different than many other handmakers. We may all be sitting pretty much in the same place? Maybe start a new topic to keep this one on track. I have to laugh on the painting. I am glad I wasn't a knight in 1500. If the live horse was bogged down that much in the back as in the painting, I am not sure my ride would have held up long enough to get to the battle, let alone pack me through it. I wonder how many of those mounted knights ended up in the infantry pretty early in the fight.

[Doug Mclean]

Jennifer:

This mare is likely to stay fairly wide through out her life. Not that she is bad because of it. For what you are wanting to do it sounds like her attitude is probably as important as conformation. If you are wanting a quick fix for less money. Potts Longhorn made a production saddle with full quarterhorse bars in 70s. There is probably one setting on a rack somewhere with your name on it. Get the word out on the internet you might be surprised. Still a good idea to have a saddle maker work with you and get the custom saddle made. One piece of advise and it may have already been stated. Try and find some middle ground on the tree fitting. This horse may not be with you for ever and the next one could be all together different.

[Johanna]

I split this informative thread into two topics in order to keep Jennifer's original post and questions on track. The rest of the topic is here:

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=2913

Johanna