Toe Spring

[goatman]

I'm going to be repairing my own boots, (4 pair), that I will have to replace the insole, midsole, and out sole on. I have a pair of lasts, which I may have to re-work, so I'm wondering what the toe-spring should be for:

standard (1 5/8th) heel -

2" heel -

2 1/4" heel -

2 1/2" heel -

It seems that the toe spring is different on the different boots with the different size heels (anywhere from 3/4" to 1 1/2"), but that may just be because they are well worn and pretty much wore out. I'm measuring the heel from the back of the boot to the floor, and adjusting for heel wear.

I'd also like to know where the best place is to find rubber heel caps for cowboy boots - economy heels will do, because I will be repairing my own from now on. The rest of the heel stack will be pegged, so I just need to find the heel caps.

TIA

Edited February 16, 2011 by goatman

[goatman]

I'm going to be repairing my own boots, (4 pair), that I will have to replace the insole, midsole, and out sole on. I have a pair of lasts, which I may have to re-work, so I'm wondering what the toe-spring should be for:

standard (1 5/8th) heel -

2" heel -

2 1/4" heel -

2 1/2" heel -

It seems that the toe spring is different on the different boots with the different size heels (anywhere from 3/4" to 1 1/2"), but that may just be because they are well worn and pretty much wore out. I'm measuring the heel from the back of the boot to the floor, and adjusting for heel wear.

I'd also like to know where the best place is to find rubber heel caps for cowboy boots - economy heels will do, because I will be repairing my own from now on. The rest of the heel stack will be pegged, so I just need to find the heel caps.

TIA

36 views, no replies in 8 days ..... great forum!

[Leatherimages]

Goatman,

I admit to being one of the "views" who didn't reply. The deal for me is not knowing the right answer.

But I can give a reply that may serve.

The higher the heel is the the more toe spring you ought to have, maybe that's obvious. I'd say 1/2" is good for heel heights from 1 1/4" to 1 1/2", and up by an 1/8" or so per 1/2".

I think much more than 3/4" is getting close to the limit. IMHO

There may well be a right answer, but there's only a few who could really claim to have it.

Heel height on a last is generally measured in the area where the side seam would be. At that point, a last that is properly balanced will be making contact with the floor at the tread line, the line from the 1st metarsal to the 5th, the widest part of the foot. Each last is properly set for a certain heel height. There really is only a small margin of variance beyond optimal. But the factories appear to pay little attention to this.

I get my rubber heels from Southern Leather in Denver. The phone number is out in the studio, so no help on that part here and now.

But if you're after just a couple of pair, you could probably get them from a shoe repair shop, if one is local.

PM me if you have trouble getting them, maybe I can help.

Your intention to replace the insole is pretty ambitious. Do you have anyone guiding you through this operation?

Edited February 24, 2011 by Leatherimages

[goatman]

Hi Paul, thanks for your answers! I love your boots, by the way, and I'm going to attempt a resize of a pair of Noconas like you showed on the other forum - some day ..... ;-) These 4 pair of boots are all wore out, so they'll be great for practicing on! I can take them apart and use them for patterns for other boots if they work out! I was able to buy a pair of lasts on eBay so I will also get some practice building up the lasts to fit my own feet.

Goatman,

The higher the heel is the the more toe spring you ought to have, maybe that's obvious. I'd say 1/2" is good for heel heights from 1 1/4" to 1 1/2", and up by an 1/8" or so per 1/2".

I think much more than 3/4" is getting close to the limit. IMHO

There may well be a right answer, but there's only a few who could really claim to have it.

That's what I was curious about and what I really wanted to know, because from what I've read on the other forum, the toe spring gets higher as the heel becomes taller (unless I've misunderstood it) - I've been reading some old shoemaking books (1800's), and it seems to indicate to me that the toe spring should go down as the heel gets higher.

"Spring is the term used to denote the elevation of the toe of thelast from the line that would pass through the joint basis (the floor). It is regulated by the kind of boot and firmness of thesole. If the substance of the sole be light, very little spring isrequired, if other things are equal; and on the other hand, stout solesrequire a greater amount of spring in the last. The reason for this isbecause, if spring is not provided in the stouter goods, the boots whenworn will "turn up at the toes" and, as a consequence, wrinkles will beformed across the front of the shoe which are unsightly anduncomfortable.The spring for an average last would be about 1/2 in.; a shoe lasthaving another in. A scale of "last spring" may be constructed, and forconvenience may be measured from the level surface upon which rests thelast, the seat not being raised. The basis for such a scale would be,men's, 1 in., and would be subdivided upon the plan illustrated in Fig.58.

Other than the spring actually required for the material andsubstance of the boot, there is an allowance made for the fact that inhigh heels the "line of contact" is more forward, and consequently thefore part of the shoe is relatively shorter, preventing the fullelasticity and bending of the foot. A high-heeled boot - such as aLouis does not need so great a spring in this sense as a boot with alow walking heel. The rule may be condensed thus Low heels - longerforepart - more spring.

High „ shorter „ less „" - "The Manufacture Of Boots And Shoes: Being A Modern Treatise Of All The Processes Of Making And Manufacturing Footgear", by F. Y. Golding.

Heel height on a last is generally measured in the area where the side seam would be. At that point, a last that is properly balanced will be making contact with the floor at the tread line, the line from the 1st metarsal to the 5th, the widest part of the foot. Each last is properly set for a certain heel height. There really is only a small margin of variance beyond optimal. But the factories appear to pay little attention to this.

Thanks, I was measuring in the wrong place I guess. One of the old books that I have says the same thing that you do, I should have followed it's direction.

I get my rubber heels from Southern Leather in Denver. The phone number is out in the studio, so no help on that part here and now.

But if you're after just a couple of pair, you could probably get them from a shoe repair shop, if one is local. PM me if you have trouble getting them, maybe I can help.

I'm a hundred and 10 miles from nowhere here, so we have nothing local. I can find the phone number on the net .... THX

Your intention to replace the insole is pretty ambitious. Do you have anyone guiding you through this operation?

No, just You Tube - (Marcel, Tim Skyrme, and others) and the other forum's pix I've always been mechanically inclined and have been a jack of all trades, master of none! for 40 odd years, so I'm sure I can do the basics with a lot of practice, there are just some things that can't be got from books, and pictures, ........ training and experience would be the best, but it will have to be trial and error for me, (and probably a lot of wasted leather), which really won't be wasted if I can learn from it! I've already put together most of the tools I think I'll need to get started, and I'm anxious to get to work so I can quit wearing tenny-runners .... if this sub-zero weather would just go away! I do have to say something good about the cold weather tho, it's giving me a lot of time to read and study before I actually get go out on the shop and practice!

Edited February 25, 2011 by goatman

[Leatherimages]

Goatman, There is soo much more than meets the eye, but it does sound like you have the thinking process you'll need.

Helping Nick in China was a challenge, but successful. I'll help you when and where I can, if you want.

Beginning with breakdown, take pictures and notes.

Getting the measurements right and making patterns for a particular last can be a big stumbling block.

We'll have to see where that goes.

[goatman]

Goatman, There is soo much more than meets the eye, but it does sound like you have the thinking process you'll need.

Helping Nick in China was a challenge, but successful. I'll help you when and where I can, if you want.

Beginning with breakdown, take pictures and notes.

Getting the measurements right and making patterns for a particular last can be a big stumbling block.

We'll have to see where that goes.

Since I can't afford lasts, that too will be a trial and error situation, but I've been studying a lot on that, so I'll let you know how that's working out as well. All this is going to take a lot of time, since I'll be taking a lttle out of the SS check each month to get myself started. While I learn to repair boots and shoes, I'm starting out with making Mocs, Sandals, and slippers, to possibly bring in some money to buy more materials and then I'll work up from there.

The first pair of boots I'm going to work on will be a pair that I wore for a couple of years up until about two years ago, by that time the soles were worn clear through the insole, so I had to put them by, ..they fit like a glove! They are all leather, made by Imperial, and I think I can keep the vamp, counter, and tops without having to disturb them too much except for the removal and replacement of the insole.

One pair that I have are custom made Mexican boots that are a size or two larger than I wear, so I'm just going to tear them apart for patterns to practice on. I can get a lot of smaller kid's boots in the thrift stores for 3 or 4 dollars per pair to tear apart and practice on as well, I'll just pour them full of plaster of paris so that I can practice the insoling, and soling and heeling on them - that way I don't have to find lasts for them .

I'm planning on getting used to doing repairs on boots and shoes and making shoes before I get too excited about building boots up from scratch or doing any re-sizing - that's probably two or three years off ;-).

Thanks for your advice and thanks for answering my questions. You may see me here asking questions off and on when I feel like I'm running into trouble, so be prepared!

[Leatherimages]

OK. Stay in touch, I'll be happy to help where I can.

Lasts are definitely a study of their own, with a learning curve.

Have you tried putting the lasts you have, into any of the pairs of boots you're planning to work on?

[goatman]

Have you tried putting the lasts you have, into any of the pairs of boots you're planning to work on?

Yes, they fit fine in the boots that are my size, but not the bigger ones.

BTW, I cut the stitches in the handmade Mexican boots today, they were an old pair of roughouts (what era is that, 50's/60's/70's?).... plastic bead and pull straps, a paperboard insole, stacked leather heels with about 50 nails and staples in each of the heels. They didn't use a holdfast on the insole of course. and no wood pegs throughout, but the uppers were nailed to the insole all around the heel section up to the sideseam with very short iron nails, and sewed around the 3/4 welt ..... it had a row of stitching INSIDE the boot, rather than using a holdfast to hold the welt and the insole on to the uppers. It had a cloth welt around the inside of the boot (on top of the insole, but under the sole liner) so they must have hand sewed that, unless there is a machine that will do the inside, including the toe area. The heel stiffener (counter?) on the inside of the heel was a very thick leather, about the same thickness as the sole, the outside was the same thickness as the uppers on the boot (no wonder these boots were so heavy !!). I don't know how old the boots are, but the leather was pretty rotten in places, and they had celastic toe boxes, but they've had a hard life just in the time my son and I had them. I got enough out of them that I can eventually use some pieces of them for patterns if I want to, so now I can hide them away for a few years ;-).

I read a thread on the other forum which had people arguing about iron nails v. brass nails v. wood pegs. Some say that the iron nails will rot the leather, and after tearing these apart, I have to agree. The heels came apart in crumbles after I tore off the rubber heel cap, all that's left of the heels are the outside rims - partly because of the abundance of nails, but also because of the deterioration of the leather around the nails in the leather, it was visibly rotted around each nail. I'll be using pegs and brass nails when I get to that point, not iron nails!

L8R .........