Saddle Stitching, Front/back Look Different?

[bigtree]

Hey guys,

I've been a frequenter of this forum for a while now and have gotten all my questions answered by searching around. I've gotten really confident with my work as of late, until I realized that the front and back of my stitches look different. I've never had anyone show me how to do anything, I've just read about it so I'm worried I'm doing something wrong. One side will have the typical look that (at least I) tend to normally associated with saddle stitching - The sort of stacked coin look if you will. Sort of like this: / / / / Problem is, the other side doesn't have that same look - the way the stitches lay in the hole is reversed and as a result they lay more straight. The stitches do this: - - - -. It's difficult to put into words, but instead of the thread laying into the nearest side of the diamond (the bottom point), it stretches across to the other side (the top point) and the thread coming through from the other side should sit in the top point but ends up laying in the bottom point. Not sure if that made any sense whatsoever. Anyway, am I doing something wrong? It seems like every one has uniform front and back sides. I pretty much do exactly what this guy does:

Some crappy phone pictures:

Good side:

Potentially bad side:

Any thoughts/input would be HUGE. Thanks everyone.

[bigtree]

Ok, I may have actually just answered my question but can someone confirm?

The method I've been using has been creating an actual, physical knot inside the stitch, which looks like this just prior to being pulled tight (you can see the knot forming):

(pic borrowed from this post)

So from my careful observation it seems like because of what the knot does to the positioning of the thread, it switches around the way the thread lays on one side. So I'm guessing that all stitches done with a knot look like mine??? The tutorial post I pulled that image from never shoes the backside of the work.

I, for some reason, had somewhere along the way come to believe that the actual knot was what made a proper saddle stitch. This thought is incorrect, right? Now going back and looking at that famous image from the Al Stohlman book, I see that the drawing shows the threads merely crossing over each other inside the stitch, not knotting.

So the whole thing about a saddle stitch not unraveling isn't because of a knot inside the thread, but simply because one thread is holding the other in place even if one gets cut...correct?

So assuming the all the above is correct: Is there any distinction between a stitch that knots and one that doesn't, or are they both just generalized as a "saddle stitch"? Is there a way to stitch with a knot but still have the two sides be identical? I still like the idea of the knot as it makes it seem ultra sturdy and even more durable.

[jimmy eng]

I'm a beginner at hand stitching but I've never seen the knot method before but I'll try it out. Sorry can't help you on your question though I'd like to know the answer as well. I imagine you're right about the knot making the other side sit differently since one thread is laying on top of the other. The Al Stohlman way, which I do, always looks the same on both sides if it's done evenly since the threads are beside each other.

[katsass]

Ok, I may have actually just answered my question but can someone confirm?

The method I've been using has been creating an actual, physical knot inside the stitch, which looks like this just prior to being pulled tight (you can see the knot forming):

(pic borrowed from this post)

FWIW from the grumpy old man: You are right......the knot is causing you problems. The way I was taught by an old WWI 'horse soldier maaaany years ago (early 1960s) was to put your first needle through, pull the thread through and back towards yourself and ENSURE that the second needle and thread lays over the top (or under the bottom) of the first thread. ALWAYS the same! Always start on the same side of the leather piece....either side, it doesn't matter BUT always the same. Ensure that there is no variation and...of course, no knot. Insert the second needle, pull through and pull both tight. Each and every stitch is done in exactly the same manner.......never a variation. The only place I use the knot is when finishing. Throw a knot in the last stitch and trim the thread CLOSE to the leather, dampen the leather slightly and run your overstitch. It stays together. Mike

Edited April 1, 2011 by katsass

[lazybum]

Ive been saddle stitching the knotting way too, and was always under the impression that it is the knot that makes saddle stitch the strongest stitch.

From what ive been reading most UK and Japanese leathercrafters use the knotting method, while most Americans don't. According to my japanese book and some of the british tutorials online, your original method is fine.

As to which way is "correct", I can't say for sure. There probably isn't one?

What might have happened is that you are making too deep a stitching groove, causing the stitches to look more straight. The knotting method will still make the 2 sides look a little different, but if you are after the slanted stitches go easy on the groover.

Edited April 1, 2011 by lazybum

[bigtree]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the replies. Lazybum, I'm curious if one of your sides look similar to my "bad" side? I guess it's not so much that the stitch sits straight that's getting to me, it's the fact that the stitches end up traveling the furthest distance instead of the closest (look carefully at my "bad" side pic) which sort of causes it to not fill out the diamond completely leaving a little bit of dead space. If you look at my "good" side pic, you can hardly see the awl hole at all, not the case with the "bad" side. I'll attempt to explain: The stitch goes from the bottom part of the diamond (/) all the way to the top part of the next diamond (/) where as the good side will have the stitch traveling the shortest distance, i.e. the top of the diamond to the bottom of the next.

I wonder if anyone's come across pictures of any Japanese or UK leathercrafters' work with the stitches doing the same thing as mine?

[hidepounder]

I don't know what is technically correct but I don't think a lock stitch is a saddle stitch. At least that is how I was taught. I've always thought a saddle stitch was stronger than a lock stitch, also. Maybe some of the saddlemakers can weigh in here.....

Bobby

[bigtree]

I'm not sure that what's technically happening with the knot is a lockstitch, at least according to what the Stohlman diagram illustrates. Definitely would like to know what the stitching experts around here have to say about all this...

[lazybum]

Hmm i think i remember seeing something like that before. I think it might be inevitable for the knotted side? Anyway heres a photo of my stitching, the one on the top is the back (knotted) side and the one on the bottom is the front side.

Although to be frank, from your photos the stitching on both sides looks good enough anyway. The difference is pretty subtle and unnoticeable.

Edited April 2, 2011 by lazybum

[reddevil76]

I have used both methods. I started out using exclusively your current method of making a knot in each stitch. It became a problem for stitching straight long narrow pieces as the tension will pull the piece into a curve. Especially when I am working with 3-4 oz leather, and 1mm thread. It also wears out the thread considerably.

I have since switched to just making sure both needles go in the same way, but no knot. Only when I am ending the last few stitches, then I produce a few knots.

Both methods produce the "potential bad side" as you mentioned. There is no escaping it. The only way to avoid it this "potentially bad side" as you mentioned is to use round stitching holes.