Saddle Stitching, Front/back Look Different?

[bigtree]

Hey guys,

I've been a frequenter of this forum for a while now and have gotten all my questions answered by searching around. I've gotten really confident with my work as of late, until I realized that the front and back of my stitches look different. I've never had anyone show me how to do anything, I've just read about it so I'm worried I'm doing something wrong. One side will have the typical look that (at least I) tend to normally associated with saddle stitching - The sort of stacked coin look if you will. Sort of like this: / / / / Problem is, the other side doesn't have that same look - the way the stitches lay in the hole is reversed and as a result they lay more straight. The stitches do this: - - - -. It's difficult to put into words, but instead of the thread laying into the nearest side of the diamond (the bottom point), it stretches across to the other side (the top point) and the thread coming through from the other side should sit in the top point but ends up laying in the bottom point. Not sure if that made any sense whatsoever. Anyway, am I doing something wrong? It seems like every one has uniform front and back sides. I pretty much do exactly what this guy does:

Some crappy phone pictures:

Good side:

Potentially bad side:

Any thoughts/input would be HUGE. Thanks everyone.

[bigtree]

Ok, I may have actually just answered my question but can someone confirm?

The method I've been using has been creating an actual, physical knot inside the stitch, which looks like this just prior to being pulled tight (you can see the knot forming):

(pic borrowed from this post)

So from my careful observation it seems like because of what the knot does to the positioning of the thread, it switches around the way the thread lays on one side. So I'm guessing that all stitches done with a knot look like mine??? The tutorial post I pulled that image from never shoes the backside of the work.

I, for some reason, had somewhere along the way come to believe that the actual knot was what made a proper saddle stitch. This thought is incorrect, right? Now going back and looking at that famous image from the Al Stohlman book, I see that the drawing shows the threads merely crossing over each other inside the stitch, not knotting.

So the whole thing about a saddle stitch not unraveling isn't because of a knot inside the thread, but simply because one thread is holding the other in place even if one gets cut...correct?

So assuming the all the above is correct: Is there any distinction between a stitch that knots and one that doesn't, or are they both just generalized as a "saddle stitch"? Is there a way to stitch with a knot but still have the two sides be identical? I still like the idea of the knot as it makes it seem ultra sturdy and even more durable.

[jimmy eng]

I'm a beginner at hand stitching but I've never seen the knot method before but I'll try it out. Sorry can't help you on your question though I'd like to know the answer as well. I imagine you're right about the knot making the other side sit differently since one thread is laying on top of the other. The Al Stohlman way, which I do, always looks the same on both sides if it's done evenly since the threads are beside each other.

[katsass]

Ok, I may have actually just answered my question but can someone confirm?

The method I've been using has been creating an actual, physical knot inside the stitch, which looks like this just prior to being pulled tight (you can see the knot forming):

(pic borrowed from this post)

FWIW from the grumpy old man: You are right......the knot is causing you problems. The way I was taught by an old WWI 'horse soldier maaaany years ago (early 1960s) was to put your first needle through, pull the thread through and back towards yourself and ENSURE that the second needle and thread lays over the top (or under the bottom) of the first thread. ALWAYS the same! Always start on the same side of the leather piece....either side, it doesn't matter BUT always the same. Ensure that there is no variation and...of course, no knot. Insert the second needle, pull through and pull both tight. Each and every stitch is done in exactly the same manner.......never a variation. The only place I use the knot is when finishing. Throw a knot in the last stitch and trim the thread CLOSE to the leather, dampen the leather slightly and run your overstitch. It stays together. Mike

Edited April 1, 2011 by katsass

[lazybum]

Ive been saddle stitching the knotting way too, and was always under the impression that it is the knot that makes saddle stitch the strongest stitch.

From what ive been reading most UK and Japanese leathercrafters use the knotting method, while most Americans don't. According to my japanese book and some of the british tutorials online, your original method is fine.

As to which way is "correct", I can't say for sure. There probably isn't one?

What might have happened is that you are making too deep a stitching groove, causing the stitches to look more straight. The knotting method will still make the 2 sides look a little different, but if you are after the slanted stitches go easy on the groover.

Edited April 1, 2011 by lazybum

[bigtree]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the replies. Lazybum, I'm curious if one of your sides look similar to my "bad" side? I guess it's not so much that the stitch sits straight that's getting to me, it's the fact that the stitches end up traveling the furthest distance instead of the closest (look carefully at my "bad" side pic) which sort of causes it to not fill out the diamond completely leaving a little bit of dead space. If you look at my "good" side pic, you can hardly see the awl hole at all, not the case with the "bad" side. I'll attempt to explain: The stitch goes from the bottom part of the diamond (/) all the way to the top part of the next diamond (/) where as the good side will have the stitch traveling the shortest distance, i.e. the top of the diamond to the bottom of the next.

I wonder if anyone's come across pictures of any Japanese or UK leathercrafters' work with the stitches doing the same thing as mine?

[hidepounder]

I don't know what is technically correct but I don't think a lock stitch is a saddle stitch. At least that is how I was taught. I've always thought a saddle stitch was stronger than a lock stitch, also. Maybe some of the saddlemakers can weigh in here.....

Bobby

[bigtree]

I'm not sure that what's technically happening with the knot is a lockstitch, at least according to what the Stohlman diagram illustrates. Definitely would like to know what the stitching experts around here have to say about all this...

[lazybum]

Hmm i think i remember seeing something like that before. I think it might be inevitable for the knotted side? Anyway heres a photo of my stitching, the one on the top is the back (knotted) side and the one on the bottom is the front side.

Although to be frank, from your photos the stitching on both sides looks good enough anyway. The difference is pretty subtle and unnoticeable.

Edited April 2, 2011 by lazybum

[reddevil76]

I have used both methods. I started out using exclusively your current method of making a knot in each stitch. It became a problem for stitching straight long narrow pieces as the tension will pull the piece into a curve. Especially when I am working with 3-4 oz leather, and 1mm thread. It also wears out the thread considerably.

I have since switched to just making sure both needles go in the same way, but no knot. Only when I am ending the last few stitches, then I produce a few knots.

Both methods produce the "potential bad side" as you mentioned. There is no escaping it. The only way to avoid it this "potentially bad side" as you mentioned is to use round stitching holes.

[bigtree]

Both methods produce the "potential bad side" as you mentioned. There is no escaping it. The only way to avoid it this "potentially bad side" as you mentioned is to use round stitching holes.

Yes, you're absolutely right. I've spent hours experimenting and researching since I posted and came to that realization that no matter how you stitch one side will align with the direction of the slant and one won't. I just saw that happening on my work and have never really noticed in pictures of other people's, so I got paranoid that I wasn't doing something correctly. Turns out my "potentially bad side" isn't bad at all, it's normal. Phew. I tend to be a bit of a perfectionist.

It also wears out the thread considerably.

Can you elaborate on that? The only reason I'm attracted to this method of stitching is because it seems like it is the strongest and most durable stitch as it adds an actual knot to keep the threads locked in place. Do you mean to say that the knot actually wears on the thread over time? To continue with my over-perfectionist nature, I need to be using the stitch that is the strongest to feel good about my work...

Edited April 2, 2011 by bigtree

[MADMAX22]

Well Ill throw in my limited experience with saddle stitching as i have only been doing it for a few years.

If you use the regular method without the fullblown knot for each stitch you will still have a very good holding stitch. Like if you want to take the item apart you will still have to cut each and every stitch just about to get it apart. If you have not tried taking something apart that has been saddle stitched even with just the regular back and forth give it a shot. It is over all a amazing stitch.

I dont do the knoit thing on every stitch as showed above because to me it is time consuming and on thinner leathers you cant hide the knot very well. However what I do is when I stitch I on your right hand side I bring the thread that just went thru and loop it under back and over the needle coming thru on the right hand side.

On the left hand side which would be the back you do something similer, I think it is under over and back towards yourself. Its not a full blown knot, just a one side over one way, the other side over the other way. This pushes the thread either up or down depending on which side which usually lines up with the slant of your awl stabbings and will cause the thread to lay in the direction of the awl blade cut on both sides. Atleast it seems to work for me.

EDIT: I think I realized I just gave ya the same advice your video you posted gave you so it was kind of a pointless post.

Edited April 2, 2011 by MADMAX22

[reddevil76]

Well, the lockstitch actually wears out the thread as I am stitching, because the knot makes the threads rub against each other alot more than the saddle stitch during the stitching process.

I have to keep re-waxing while stitching a 8 X 8 inch wallet outer. With the saddle stitch, I don't have this problem.

[25b]

When you get better at saddle-stitching, you'll start using high contrast thread and leather just to show off how nice your stitching is. I do, anyway.

Until then, I notice most folks use black thread on black leather...brown on brown, etc...

[Martyn]

It's difficult to put into words, but instead of the thread laying into the nearest side of the diamond (the bottom point), it stretches across to the other side (the top point) and the thread coming through from the other side should sit in the top point but ends up laying in the bottom point.

I realise this is an old thread, but I was having this same problem and figured out exactly what was causing it and thought I would comment for posterity. When you create the knot, you pass the thread either under or over the needle, depending on the direction in which you are stitching. If you stitch appears 'wrong' in that the threads are emerging from the opposite point of the diamond hole to where they should be coming out, then you are either passing the thread over the needle when it should be under, or passing it under when it should be over. If you reverse whatever it is you are doing, the stitch should be corrected.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Martyn

[alpha2]

I have noticed that the depth of the stitch groove can straighten out the stitches. All that effort, and the groove straightens it out. Bummed. (It also has to do with the ratio of thread size to stitch groove.)

[bikermutt07]

I quit using my groover. I use the divider instead. I only use my groover now to make little tracks in things I'm glueing together.

[JLSleather]

Been a LOT of 'stuff' on lately about 'casting' stitches, and 'angling' stitches, and 'laughing till yer in" stitches....bleh!

I like mine STRAIGHT.  Comes out the awl, or comes off the machine - either way I want 'em STRAIGHT.

BOTH sides.

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by JLSleather

[MADMAX22]

I like mine angled, coming out either the awl or the machine. Both sides. 

[misarins]

Solution is simple.

1. Do not groove.
2. Do not use knot which is a force stitching technique when slanted angle is the opposite direction.
3. During stitching keep face side to your left, stitch towards yourself and keep left hand side loop on the top of the needle.

It will give you a neat and great looking stitch line

Edited July 6, 2016 by misarins
typo

[Martyn]

On 03/07/2016 at 11:44 PM, alpha2 said:

I have noticed that the depth of the stitch groove can straighten out the stitches. All that effort, and the groove straightens it out. Bummed. (It also has to do with the ratio of thread size to stitch groove.)

Dont make a grove, it's absolutely not necessary.

There is no reason why you cant get a decent angle on both sides...

Front

Back

average stitching but I get good angles always.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Martyn

[Vo1lok]

On 07.07.2016 at 8:47 AM, Martyn said:

Dont make a grove, it's absolutely not necessary.

There is no reason why you cant get a decent angle on both sides...

Front

How did you achieved that? Can you xplain please?

[hidepounder]

The purpose for a stitching groove is to protect the thread from abrasion. Day to day wear can cause the thread to fray when it's not in a groove. A thread groove can be cut or simply "embossed" to help bring the thread below the surface level of the leather to protect it from abrasion. On heavier leather, the stitches can simply be pulled down tight enough to embed them and protect them from abrasion. Another frequently seen mistake is the use of thread which two or three times too large and completely out of scale with the project. Pretty stitches, Martyn!!

[Martyn]

15 hours ago, Vo1lok said:

How did you achieved that? Can you xplain please?

Yeah, you saddle stitch as normal but cast a loop on the back. This guy explains it well....

https://youtu.be/3zTOqJCWbfY?t=231

 

[Martyn]

12 hours ago, hidepounder said:

The purpose for a stitching groove is to protect the thread from abrasion. Day to day wear can cause the thread to fray when it's not in a groove....

I'd draw your attention to this....

It's the webbing on a Swedish Army backpack. The saddlers mark is date-stamped 1949 and these packs were not decommissioned with each soldier, they were handed in, cleaned and re-issued. This pack has had a hard life, but in spite of it being nearly 70 years old, I'd say there are a few more decades in it yet. All stitching is linen obviously, no groves to be seen and no evidence of an overstitch wheel. I agree there are times when a groove is a good idea, but for general surface stitching, even on items that are destined for extremely hard use, it's absolutely not necessary. You wont see it on any English saddlery and there is loads of old tack knocking around to testify to it's durability.