Saddle Stitching, Front/back Look Different?

[hidepounder]

OK, I'll bite! Where did you read that I said stitching HAD to be recessed? I simply stated a reason for recessing thread. Also, I don't recall making ANY statement regarding the durability of a linen saddle stitch!  The backpack is really cool and obviously very well taken care of.  The straps are only stitched where the leather is turned on the hardware, which is not an area that receives any abrasion. And what about the turned edge at the top of your photo where the stitching has definitely been recessed into the leather by pulling it down tight?.With regard to the backpack's possible 70 year longevity, I hope you're not suggesting that it has been in constant rigorous use for the last 70 years!

I do take exception with your comment about English saddlery! The stitching on any quality English or Hunt Seat saddles that I've seen, look nothing like the stitching in your photos. I am in no way criticizing your sewing! It is very nice and far superior to mine, I assure you. Nor am I any kind of authority on English saddles. But I've been around a lot of them and the three that are in my barn all have refined stitching at 10 or more stitches per inch with a much lighter thread, that is most certainly pulled down into the leather!  

Your comment   "....but for general surface stitching, even on items that are destined for extremely hard use, it's absolutely not necessary."  may be appropriate in Great Britain, but I think you're painting with too broad a brush.  Western gear construction and materials are much more robust than English gear because western gear is required to take a lot more abuse. It is not uncommon for saddle seats and fenders made of 15 oz leather, to be worn paper thin after just a few years of constant use. Anyway it has become somewhat traditional to place stitches in a groove to help protect them. It has become part of the western "look" which people are accustomed to seeing. So grooving is often performed as much for it's look as for necessity. Generally, the thickness of the leather used on western gear will usually tolerate grooving where it would be detrimental on the lighter, more refined leather used on English gear.

I personally like to see a stitching groove (cut or embossed) as long as it doesn't create weakness.  And with the amazing contact adhesives we have these days, sewing is often only a back-up for the glue anyway. So I guess we'll just have to disagree about the durability and appearance of exposed or unprotected stitches. I think it would be fair to say it all hinges on the application.

Just my humble unqualified opinion.....

Bobby

[Martyn]

5 hours ago, hidepounder said:

OK, I'll bite! Where did you read that I said stitching HAD to be recessed?

You didnt. I'm just making the argument for the other side, because so many labour under the misconception that stitching should be recessed to protect it. Very rarely does it need it - maybe on saddle skirting where two bits of leather are constantly rubbing over each other, or the inside of a knife sheath where the stitching could be exposed to a knife edge, then yeah, it makes sense. But for the most part, it's cosmetic.

5 hours ago, hidepounder said:

So grooving is often performed as much for it's look as for necessity.

That's my point. For the most part, it's a cosmetic choice.

We all have our preferences, but you have to admit, there is a sort of blinkered obsession with following the Stohlman method when it comes to stitching? His method and the Western style isn't the only way. For most products and with modern bonded polyester thread, the stitching will probably outlast the leather (and the owner), grooved or not. There are other options and those options dont put the stitching at risk and they are not inferior.

 

BTW, my back[pack wasn't well looked after. This was the condition it was in when I bought it:

...and after I had cleaned it, treated the leather and re-proofed the canvas (and added a couple of blanket strap mounts on the bottom)...

Edited January 6, 2017 by Martyn

[hidepounder]

1 minute ago, Martyn said:

You didnt. I'm just making the argument for the other side, because so many labour under the misconception that stitching should be recessed to protect it. Very rarely does it need it - maybe on saddle skirting where two bits of leather are constantly rubbing over each other, or the inside of a knife sheath where the stitching could be exposed to a knife edge, then yeah, it makes sense. But for the most part, it's cosmetic.

That's my point. For the most part, it's a cosmetic choice.

We all have our preferences, but you have to admit, there is a sort of blinkered obsession with following the Stohlman method when it comes to stitching? His method and the Western style isn't the only way. For most products and with modern bonded polyester thread, the stitching will probably outlast the leather (and the owner), grooved or not.

Martyn, I'm sorry, but I just can't accept your full statement! In my opinion you are still painting with too broad a brush. And by the way, who said Stohlman's methods or the western style was the only way? I certainly did not! Just for the record, the adaption of a stitching groove had absolutely nothing to do with Stohlman. The application was used throughout the harness industry and the western saddle industry LONG before Stohlman's time! That's not a particularly important point, but there it is none the less.

I don't understand why you are insisting to presume that the conditions and standards which you prefer are applicable everywhere. In fact, I would submit to you that the finest English saddler in the E.U. sews everything by hand and uses a relatively small thread with a high stitch count which is all recessed! Don't take my word for it, though! I invite you to visit the site of Jean-Luc Parisot in France. Here is an example of his work and a link to his site:  http://parisotsellier.com. 

 

I have no bones to pick with anyone who wants to stitch everything by hand or use thread which is over-sized for the job. There is a market for that particular look, especially among the hand stitching purists. If the craftsman does a good job of it, they have my admiration, such as I expressed to you in my first post. However, I will continue to utilize the finer recessed stitches on my products. I believe it makes for superior construction with a more refined appearance. And please, don't tell me that large unprotected stitches will outlast both the leather and the user! I hear you selling, but, I'm just not buying it, LOL!

Have a great weekend!

Bobby

[Martyn]

Seems I have touched a nerve. My apologies.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I dont see a groove in that saddle?

[hidepounder]

Didn't say there was one. It either has an embossed groove (developed with a creaser) or is just pulled down tight enough so that the stitches are below the plain of the surface. To my way of thinking, that's superior workmanship.

[silverwingit]

Methinks both Bob and Martin represent the opposite ends of the hand stitching spectrum and that are both correct in the context of their respective domains, one American, the other European. My particular style is rooted in experience using both Western and English saddle stitching, which is why I am chiming in here. I am no expert by any means but my work is perfectly serviceable and cosmetically acceptable (see attachment).

I started out working from Al Stohlman's books using a stitch groover, overstitch wheel and diamond awl. Classic Western stitching. It took a lot of work but I got fairly good t it. There were two nagging problems, though. I was totally dissatisfied with the thread I could find. I tried everything from the best waxed linen thread to the garbage Tandy sells. Linen was OK but it frayed easily so I had to use short runs and a lot of joins. Tedious and unsightly. The other persistent problem was the pesky stitch groover. I never could get good or even "safe" at using one. I wouldn't want to add up the value of all the projects I've ruined with one. It became an Everest of an issue negotiating sharp bends or corners and then accidentally overshooting, making an ugly and totally un-concealable gouge. I still despise stitch groovers though I will admit that once a groove is successfully laid it actually makes stitching less demanding because the thread will want to go into the straight groove even if it is sightly out of alignment.

So I consulted Youtube. I found the video the OP cites and similar ones that didn't really offer what I felt were viable alternatives for my purposes, or weren't detailed enough to reproduce. Then I found Nigel Armitage's first couple of videos, just when he was starting out. No groover, an awl, and  a pricking iron replaces the overstitch wheel. And, those gorgeous slanted stitches, front and back. I was elated. Since then, Nige has created several more videos. For the benefit of the OP, this one is a good summary of how he saddle stitches. OP should forget he ever saw the video he has been referring to until he undertakes box stitching. Even then Nige has a better way.

 

 

I contacted Nigel and found him to be not only as expert as his videos portrayed but very generous in his willingness to share his knowledge and experience with a total stranger from far away. I felt as if chains had been cast off. I ordered Dickson pricking irons and undertook several months working on my technique. Very difficult to get that back side looking good. I was able to do it but it was time-consuming. So I switched to Japanese-style diamond stitching chisels that fully penetrate the leather. Rarely do I use thick enough leather that I have to use an awl to complete the hole that the chisel starts but even then the chisel does most of the work for me.

The other thing I discovered watching Nige was that excellent hand stitching thread does exist. I ordered several hundred dollars worth of Tiger thread in various sizes and colors directly from Abbey England and it is a pure delight to stitch with. No more splitting, fraying or joins. Spectrum of available colors and just the right amount of wax. I haven't touched my synthetic sinew, collection of waxed linen or several different kinds of the horrendous threads Tandy sells, ever since. [N.B., Now there is an emerging domestic source of similar woven polyester thread from Lekoza Leather. See one of Nigel's most recent videos. I think Lekoza is a member here as well.]

Since discovering Nigel, Tiger thread and working out the kinks in my own stitching, it's been smooth sailing. Instead of being a chore, I find British-style saddle stitching to be fun, relaxing and gratifying. What I've discovered as far as stitch groovers, and what I believe I see in Jean-Luc's work, is that if you put enough tension on the tread, it pulls down pretty much level with the leather's surface so that a stitch groover is unnecessary. Nigel will use a stitch groover on rare occasions where the stitches will be in direct contact-type wear with another component. But for one of his $400 belts or a satchel, no. 

And, if you think about it, even though there is a strong tradition in American saddle stitching, Europeans have gotten away with making and using personal and heavily-used equine items with saddle stitching for a few hundred years longer than we have. It's difficult to argue with their success.

Bottom line, my feeling is that there is a place for using a stitch groover, but that they are unnecessary except in regions exposed to heavy friction. Now I use a groover only when I'm making authentic reproductions of leather items used in the historic American West.

One last note. Brits call it casting a stitch when you pass the thread over the needle as it comes through the leather, creating an overhand knot that gets pulled into the stitch hole. The OP found the only video I've ever seen where the maker teaches putting the needles in at the same time and casting both. With British stitching, you hold one needle on top of the other and pierce the leather with one needle at a time to achieve the same thing. This is very effective in maintaining a nice, regular slanted appearance on the back side.  I haven't tried it but it could be that one of the potential problems causing the OP's back side stitches to fall in a straight line is the direction of the casting, left-handed vs. right. One way picks up on the direction imparted by the front side stitch, the other cancels it. It's all highly dependent on the direction in which you are stitching. I tell you what. If you really want to suss out saddle stitching, learn to stitch on both directions. That really forces you to think things through.

Thanks,

Michelle

 

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by silverwingit

[Martyn]

On 08/01/2017 at 11:32 PM, silverwingit said:

I am no expert by any means but my work is perfectly serviceable and cosmetically acceptable

You are too modest Michelle - I saw that camera harness you made and the stitching struck me immediately, I thought it was knockout good - I use exactly the same technique you describe but I'm not yet anywhere near as neat and consistent as you. One day.

 

On 08/01/2017 at 11:32 PM, silverwingit said:

One way picks up on the direction imparted by the front side stitch, the other cancels it. It's all highly dependent on the direction in which you are stitching.

This is dead right. I had the same problem and it took me a while to figure it out. If you are casting a loop and it's flattening your back side stitching, it's because of the direction you are sewing - left to right/right to left or front to back/back to front - and whether you are casting the loop over or under the needle. If you are casting over and it flattens the stitch, just cast under instead and visa versa. The hard part is remembering all the different permutations. :D

I keep meaning to go on one of Nigel's courses one day, he's only about 20 miles from me and I really should take advantage of it.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Martyn

[Martyn]

On 08/01/2017 at 11:32 PM, silverwingit said:

Europeans have gotten away with making and using personal and heavily-used equine items with saddle stitching for a few hundred years longer than we have.

Just to expand on this - because hidepounder referenced it too. British saddles might seem like effeminate things used by posh people to pose around the countryside on horseback, drinking champaign and socialising - and there might be some truth in that today. But this has not always been the case. It would be a mistake to assume that English saddlery isn't as 'robust' as Western saddlery or that the techniques used are somehow inferior. Horses were first domesticated in Britain and used to ride, pull chariots and ploughs from about 2500BC. The same is true for most of Europe - there is about 4,500 years of hard-use saddlery (farming, travel and warfare) behind the techniques used in European saddlery today. The motor car is not yet 150 years old and before that, horses were used for everything and even as late as WWI, Cavalry still actually meant going into battle on horseback. Britain alone had over a million horses in that war. They were used to pull ambulances, artillery and supply wagons as well as carry troops - they even had gas masks.

 

Edited January 11, 2017 by Martyn

[hidepounder]

Great post Michelle and very informative! And beautiful sewing, BTW!!! In case you haven't run across them, the best stitch groovers that I have ever found are manufactured by Bob Douglas in Sheridan, WY. He makes the Versa Groover which is a guided groover and he makes two sizes of hand groovers. All come incredibly sharp and ready to use. The tip provided on the Versa Groover is the best I've ever found. The hand groovers are also great to use as gouges in light leather to create fold lines. These are in a class of their own with regard to groovers. I also like to use the Horse Shoe brand groover which is a caliper style groover like the C.S. Osborn groover and I use a Versa Groover tip in it as well.

For me the down side of using a groover is that your are cutting the strongest surface on the leather which in principle is creating something of a weak point. And maybe even more important is that you are creating a track for dirt and sweat to catch in which is pretty tough on thread. So IF thread can be recessed into the leather by embossing a groove which does not cut the leather (you use a creaser for this), but helps to drop the stitch below the surface plain of the leather, that is probably a better alternative. This can also accomplished with a pair of dividers with tips that have not been sharpened. On western gear, the strength issue is a non-starter because we're talking about 15 oz leather. I do groove belts, however, because I have seen so many with the stitching worn completely off! In this instance I'm using 6-7 oz or 7-8 oz veg tanned leather with a lining which brings the belt up to around 12 oz total weight.

Has anyone ever wondered why stitching groovers were invented in the first place? There is a reason why creasers, skirt channelers, straight channelers, edge channelers and gum tools were developed in the first place. The were developed by companies like Dixon, HF Osborn, CS Osborne, Blanchard, Gomph and probably other companies that I'm not even aware of for use in the HARNESS industry! Gomph and Osborne were making them in the mid 1800's. During WW1, British and American saddlers boxes included both groovers and channelers. I'm sure they were included because it was unnecessary to use them, right? And for the record, Martyn, Americans used horses to perform all those same tasks both here at home and in the Military and in Europe!

Before I go any farther I want to make something very clear to everyone following this thread. I am NOT an expert of any kind on hand sewing. I hate to sew and there is no one in the leather industry who is worse at sewing than I am! I use a sewing machines and only hand sew when there is simply no other alternative. And my hand sewing always looks bad! I only wish I could sew as well as Martyn or Michelle! So I just want that on the record before I go any farther. And for those of you who are tired of reading the bickering between Martyn and me, I promise this will be my last post on the subject! Martyn can have the last word.

Martyn, I resent you putting words in my mouth! I NEVER said nor inferred that English saddlery is inferior to western saddlery! It is not inferior, and I sure as hell don't need you to clarify that for me! I have the greatest respect for the quality of craftsmanship which goes into English saddlery. English saddles are for more refined than western saddles. However, English saddlery is  NOT as robust as western saddlery and it's ignorant to suggest that it is!  That comment is in no way a criticism of English Saddlery, Martyn and I suggest that YOU are the one being defensive!!! An English saddle is not designed to the same job that a western saddle is. A western saddle cannot preform the same tasks as an English saddle. I believe most people would opt to use the right tool for the job. Why would anyone use their family car when the job requires a tractor? It's not a difficult concept!  ?

I simply cannot understand why anyone would suggest that an English saddle could withstand the abuse expected from a western saddle! It is simply preposterous to compare the performance of the two. They just couldn't be farther apart when it comes to design or use! There is simply no reason for an English saddle to be constructed that way. Saddles are constructed differently for different types of work. It sure as hell doesn't mean that one is superior to the other!  Who in their right mind would tackle a cross country jumping course in a western saddle? Where European style saddles are made of lightweight leather and are primarily used for pleasure riding and sport such as jumping, hunting and racing. Not working and roping cattle! Western gear was developed for the working cowboys who spend entire days in the saddle while working cattle in a harsh environment. The reason cowboys ride the much heavier western saddle is because the job cannot be accomplished with English style equipment!. Cattle ranches can span hundreds of square miles. Some are larger than our northeastern states. The cattle on these ranches are not domesticated animals which can be managed on foot with staffs as they primarily are in Europe. We are talking about ranches which are tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of acres in size and have thousands of head of cattle. The point being that the difference in cattle management on a European farm is dramatically different than that of an American cattle ranch. You will NEVER see and English rider and horse cut or turn back cattle! You will NEVER see an English rider turn a steer running full out. NO rider could remain in the saddle performing those moves in an English saddle. 

The western saddle was designed to withstand the rigors of riding day in and day out and withstand roping functions in order to perform tasks like capturing wild cattle, branding and doctoring out on the range. If you think an English saddle could stay together when connected to an 800-1000 lb steer strying it's best to escape, you delusional! It's the reason western saddles are constructed of 15 oz veg tanned skirting leather on heavy wooden bullhide covered trees instead of 6-7 oz. leather and very light trees found on European style saddles. Cowboys often travel many miles a day horseback while working cattle. In many parts of the western U.S. the geography is very rugged and one man may need to ride more than one horse in a day, in order to complete their job. The manner in which western saddles are constructed is also worlds apart from the European saddle! Western saddles have layers ofheavy leather that overlap and move against each other. European saddles are not made that way! There are more moving parts in a single western saddle fender and stirrup leather than in an entire English saddle! I'm not an expert in any of these fields, but having been involved with cattle ranching, I feel very comfortable in saying that there are no similarities for comparison between European and Western equipment! 

So my hackles go up, Martyn, when someone with no knowledge of the demands placed on western style gear, suggests that English style equipment is proof that unprotected thread will outlast the leather it's in or the individual who's using that equipment. That's just silly! Remember, Martyn, that this little squabble came about when you so blatantly professed that there is just no need to recess stitching on ANY gear because the thread will simply outlast it!  You put words in my mouth again when you professed that I said  all stitching should be placed in a stitching groove! That's not true! You made assumptions beyond my intent! Oh and by the way, Martyn, it is generally accepted that horses were first domesticated in Eurasia, not England! And what the hell does that have to do with this discussion anyway? Is your point that harness work, which isn't used for western work, is somehow tougher? I suggest you visit a working cattle ranch where hundreds of head of UNDOMESTICATED cattle are being roped, branded, tagged, vaccinated, de-horned and castrated, while tied to the saddle horn and explain to me how well an English saddle would done the job! 

I consider hand sewing to be a real art all in itself and I have tremendous admiration for all of you have been determined and dedicated enough to become good at it because I am not! I love my Adler and my Cobra and would be in serious trouble without them, LOL! Anyway, as promised I'm done bickering and arguing about this, LOL!  I hope everyone reading this thread has been entertained, but I'm really weary of this discussion. I've tried to make a simple point and if I've failed I apologize for wasting time. Lets argue about something else, like maybe, which tool is better for beveling? A modeling tool or a beveler!!! 

Bobby

 

[Martyn]

4 hours ago, hidepounder said:

However, English saddlery is  NOT as robust as western saddlery and it's ignorant to suggest that it is! 

This is just nonsense. You are conflating one style of saddle with saddlery in general. Who makes the harnesses that pull artillery? Have you ever seen a Shire horse? Where do you think they come from? I'll give you a clue - I live in the county of Staffordshire, which is inbetween the counties of Cheshire and Debyshire. They were used to haul the heaviest farm machinery and pull the biggest wagons. Who do you think make the harnesses and tack for these animals? Your statement is absurd.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Martyn

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

I've been following this thread and Bob your last post is very well said. You pretty much stated everything I was thinking. 

I used to think everything needed to be stitch grooved. In later years, I have realized that NOT everything needs to be grooved.  Sometimes a crease will suffice, or even be better than cutting a groove.  And oftentimes, no groove is really needed at all. However, there are items, and western saddles are a prime example, that if the thread is not recessed, you will soon have multiple layers coming apart where there should be multiple layers sewn together.  I have studied harness since I was 10 years old. I am 50 now.  I mean I REALLY studied it. My grandfather's old harness still hung in the barn where I grew up. As a 10 year old kid, I dragged all that harness into the basement of my parents house (they were less than thrilled) and literally spent hours upon hours just studying it to see how it was made.  I know one thing after 40 years of working on harness for a living, there are parts of a harness were if the thread is not recessed in some manner, things are going to come apart.  It's the reason stitchers had knives to sew traces and rounds, and as Bob mentioned, it's the reason all those cool old groovers were invented back in the 1800's.  I rode English horses for a living for 4 years out of high school.  The equipment is different.  There is very little sewing to come un-sewed.  Bob is spot on about the different requirements for English and western equipment.  They are different by design because they serve different purposes. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I'd be willing to bet that some of that heavy harness you refer to Martyn, has the traces channeled or is designed in such a manner that that there is no friction between parts: I see a lot of chain and rope in European harness.  Even the hind leg of a horse rubbing on a sewn leather trace when turning at the end of the field will eventually wear through the stitches. 

I'm not trying to pick up where Bob left off. I'm not going to spend much time composing replies to defend something I know to be true, through 40 years of daily experience. But I did feel the need to come to Bob's defense, even though I'm sure he doesn't need defending. Have a great day everyone!

[Johanna]

This thread is 6 years old. If we are going to discuss this again, let's start a new thread without a Chevy/Ford comparison. Thanks guys!

~J