Members Martyn Posted July 6, 2016 Members Report Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) On 03/07/2016 at 11:44 PM, alpha2 said: I have noticed that the depth of the stitch groove can straighten out the stitches. All that effort, and the groove straightens it out. Bummed. (It also has to do with the ratio of thread size to stitch groove.) Dont make a grove, it's absolutely not necessary. There is no reason why you cant get a decent angle on both sides... Front Back average stitching but I get good angles always. Edited July 6, 2016 by Martyn
Members Vo1lok Posted January 5, 2017 Members Report Posted January 5, 2017 On 07.07.2016 at 8:47 AM, Martyn said: Dont make a grove, it's absolutely not necessary. There is no reason why you cant get a decent angle on both sides... Front How did you achieved that? Can you xplain please?
hidepounder Posted January 5, 2017 Report Posted January 5, 2017 The purpose for a stitching groove is to protect the thread from abrasion. Day to day wear can cause the thread to fray when it's not in a groove. A thread groove can be cut or simply "embossed" to help bring the thread below the surface level of the leather to protect it from abrasion. On heavier leather, the stitches can simply be pulled down tight enough to embed them and protect them from abrasion. Another frequently seen mistake is the use of thread which two or three times too large and completely out of scale with the project. Pretty stitches, Martyn!!
Members Martyn Posted January 5, 2017 Members Report Posted January 5, 2017 15 hours ago, Vo1lok said: How did you achieved that? Can you xplain please? Yeah, you saddle stitch as normal but cast a loop on the back. This guy explains it well.... https://youtu.be/3zTOqJCWbfY?t=231
Members Martyn Posted January 5, 2017 Members Report Posted January 5, 2017 12 hours ago, hidepounder said: The purpose for a stitching groove is to protect the thread from abrasion. Day to day wear can cause the thread to fray when it's not in a groove.... I'd draw your attention to this.... It's the webbing on a Swedish Army backpack. The saddlers mark is date-stamped 1949 and these packs were not decommissioned with each soldier, they were handed in, cleaned and re-issued. This pack has had a hard life, but in spite of it being nearly 70 years old, I'd say there are a few more decades in it yet. All stitching is linen obviously, no groves to be seen and no evidence of an overstitch wheel. I agree there are times when a groove is a good idea, but for general surface stitching, even on items that are destined for extremely hard use, it's absolutely not necessary. You wont see it on any English saddlery and there is loads of old tack knocking around to testify to it's durability.
hidepounder Posted January 6, 2017 Report Posted January 6, 2017 OK, I'll bite! Where did you read that I said stitching HAD to be recessed? I simply stated a reason for recessing thread. Also, I don't recall making ANY statement regarding the durability of a linen saddle stitch! The backpack is really cool and obviously very well taken care of. The straps are only stitched where the leather is turned on the hardware, which is not an area that receives any abrasion. And what about the turned edge at the top of your photo where the stitching has definitely been recessed into the leather by pulling it down tight?.With regard to the backpack's possible 70 year longevity, I hope you're not suggesting that it has been in constant rigorous use for the last 70 years! I do take exception with your comment about English saddlery! The stitching on any quality English or Hunt Seat saddles that I've seen, look nothing like the stitching in your photos. I am in no way criticizing your sewing! It is very nice and far superior to mine, I assure you. Nor am I any kind of authority on English saddles. But I've been around a lot of them and the three that are in my barn all have refined stitching at 10 or more stitches per inch with a much lighter thread, that is most certainly pulled down into the leather! Your comment "....but for general surface stitching, even on items that are destined for extremely hard use, it's absolutely not necessary." may be appropriate in Great Britain, but I think you're painting with too broad a brush. Western gear construction and materials are much more robust than English gear because western gear is required to take a lot more abuse. It is not uncommon for saddle seats and fenders made of 15 oz leather, to be worn paper thin after just a few years of constant use. Anyway it has become somewhat traditional to place stitches in a groove to help protect them. It has become part of the western "look" which people are accustomed to seeing. So grooving is often performed as much for it's look as for necessity. Generally, the thickness of the leather used on western gear will usually tolerate grooving where it would be detrimental on the lighter, more refined leather used on English gear. I personally like to see a stitching groove (cut or embossed) as long as it doesn't create weakness. And with the amazing contact adhesives we have these days, sewing is often only a back-up for the glue anyway. So I guess we'll just have to disagree about the durability and appearance of exposed or unprotected stitches. I think it would be fair to say it all hinges on the application. Just my humble unqualified opinion..... Bobby
Members Martyn Posted January 6, 2017 Members Report Posted January 6, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, hidepounder said: OK, I'll bite! Where did you read that I said stitching HAD to be recessed? You didnt. I'm just making the argument for the other side, because so many labour under the misconception that stitching should be recessed to protect it. Very rarely does it need it - maybe on saddle skirting where two bits of leather are constantly rubbing over each other, or the inside of a knife sheath where the stitching could be exposed to a knife edge, then yeah, it makes sense. But for the most part, it's cosmetic. 5 hours ago, hidepounder said: So grooving is often performed as much for it's look as for necessity. That's my point. For the most part, it's a cosmetic choice. We all have our preferences, but you have to admit, there is a sort of blinkered obsession with following the Stohlman method when it comes to stitching? His method and the Western style isn't the only way. For most products and with modern bonded polyester thread, the stitching will probably outlast the leather (and the owner), grooved or not. There are other options and those options dont put the stitching at risk and they are not inferior. BTW, my back[pack wasn't well looked after. This was the condition it was in when I bought it: ...and after I had cleaned it, treated the leather and re-proofed the canvas (and added a couple of blanket strap mounts on the bottom)... Edited January 6, 2017 by Martyn
hidepounder Posted January 6, 2017 Report Posted January 6, 2017 1 minute ago, Martyn said: You didnt. I'm just making the argument for the other side, because so many labour under the misconception that stitching should be recessed to protect it. Very rarely does it need it - maybe on saddle skirting where two bits of leather are constantly rubbing over each other, or the inside of a knife sheath where the stitching could be exposed to a knife edge, then yeah, it makes sense. But for the most part, it's cosmetic. That's my point. For the most part, it's a cosmetic choice. We all have our preferences, but you have to admit, there is a sort of blinkered obsession with following the Stohlman method when it comes to stitching? His method and the Western style isn't the only way. For most products and with modern bonded polyester thread, the stitching will probably outlast the leather (and the owner), grooved or not. Martyn, I'm sorry, but I just can't accept your full statement! In my opinion you are still painting with too broad a brush. And by the way, who said Stohlman's methods or the western style was the only way? I certainly did not! Just for the record, the adaption of a stitching groove had absolutely nothing to do with Stohlman. The application was used throughout the harness industry and the western saddle industry LONG before Stohlman's time! That's not a particularly important point, but there it is none the less. I don't understand why you are insisting to presume that the conditions and standards which you prefer are applicable everywhere. In fact, I would submit to you that the finest English saddler in the E.U. sews everything by hand and uses a relatively small thread with a high stitch count which is all recessed! Don't take my word for it, though! I invite you to visit the site of Jean-Luc Parisot in France. Here is an example of his work and a link to his site: http://parisotsellier.com. I have no bones to pick with anyone who wants to stitch everything by hand or use thread which is over-sized for the job. There is a market for that particular look, especially among the hand stitching purists. If the craftsman does a good job of it, they have my admiration, such as I expressed to you in my first post. However, I will continue to utilize the finer recessed stitches on my products. I believe it makes for superior construction with a more refined appearance. And please, don't tell me that large unprotected stitches will outlast both the leather and the user! I hear you selling, but, I'm just not buying it, LOL! Have a great weekend! Bobby
Members Martyn Posted January 6, 2017 Members Report Posted January 6, 2017 Seems I have touched a nerve. My apologies. Maybe I'm missing something, but I dont see a groove in that saddle?
hidepounder Posted January 8, 2017 Report Posted January 8, 2017 Didn't say there was one. It either has an embossed groove (developed with a creaser) or is just pulled down tight enough so that the stitches are below the plain of the surface. To my way of thinking, that's superior workmanship.
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