That Silver Stuff On Wallets Etc...

[Skald]

Looking at sites like these: http://www.biker-wallets.com/ and http://www.onetoomanydesign.com/leather/index.html you see quite some "custom made silver details", and I don't know really how they make them. I do have some experience both from wax carving, casting and soldering etc. when it comes to silver, but maybe that makes me even more confused. I mean, how do you make "snap buttons", rivets etc. with those silver adornments? I haven't seen things like these IRL, just pictures, so it's a but difficult to grasp. And I don't have like $500 to purchase a wallet, just for looking at.

So, if anyone have a clue, or even experience from anything similar, please fill me in!

[WyomingSlick]

Much of that stuff is availible commercially; get off your duff and start searching the internet. Tandy even has a selection of the skull and biker doo daws.

[dirtclod]

I don't know anything about casting silver either. But if you carve wax you might be able to make a mold and do a lost wax casting. I think that's what it's called. My guess is they silver solder a chicago screw to the casting to attach it to the bill fold. If you type in sliver working forms and lost wax casting their are several places telling how to do it. Good luck.

[ramrod]

i'll bet you're right, dirt......it's easy to solder a coin to a snap or a copper rivet (for instance). i'm betting that's similar to what was done here.

[Skald]

Yeah, I have seen that there are stuff commercially available, but I have ideas for own designs, and that's what's causing me the bugs in my brain.

I'll try soldering some scrap silver to a snap button, I think that might be the easiest thing to solve. But when it comes to that loophole thing for example here http://www.onetooman.../hannoid_fr.jpg I really can't think of any solution. I can do wax carvings and castings etc., but I am quite sure I can't manage to make a silver eyelet, that's a little too much precision work hehehe... Well, I'll do some field investigations during the summer, and see what I can come up with.

Edit: Been thinking of this with soldering some silver design directly to a rivet, and can't see much of a problem in doing that in itself (depending on what sort of rivet it is, if it's chromed, it will eventually fall off along with the chrome). But how on earth would I be able to fix that rivet? It would probably ruin the silver design thing quite instantly (by either hammering or using an arbor press). I could perhaps put some layers of soft skin under it, but then the snap would probably not set properly, due to the problem of keeping it straight etc. So, I guess it would be best if I made the silver thing with sort of "prongs" on the backside, and a matching washer with holes underneath. And then (my English is really not good enough for this!) put the prongs through holes in the leather, and put the washer at the back of the leather, slide the prongs through the holes of the washer, and then sort of "hammer them down" the old time rivet way. I thought of soldering the thing on the backside, but then realized the leather would burn pretty badly. And then of course, just set a regular snap rivet on another piece of leather, and sew both parts together - hiding both the washer thing, and the back of the snap rivet.

That's probably the best solution I can come to think of, most other ways are ruled out either by the element of heat, or the pressure to set snap rivets. I must make some prototype thing out of scrap material, and see how it holds up.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Skald

[Phatdaddy]

Best bet would be to use somthing like this:

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.ca/search/searchresults/1290-02.aspx

[Skald]

Best bet would be to use somthing like this:

http://www.tandyleat...ts/1290-02.aspx

Might be useful, if I grind off the nickel plating before soldering. Soldering on any "plating" will cause problems sooner or later. I'll go to my father's workshop tomorrow and try soldering a piece of silver to a rivet, just to make sure it works. Thanks for the tip.

[impulse]

Springfield Leather has Concho snap adaptors, $5 for pk of 10

http://springfieldleather.com/store/product/2222/Adapter%2CConcho-Snap%2C10pk/

Lois

[Skald]

Springfield Leather has Concho snap adaptors, $5 for pk of 10

http://springfieldle...ho-Snap%2C10pk/

Lois

Probably one of the most worthwhile suggestion I've seen so far. Looks like a good solution.

[Phatdaddy]

Those wouldn't take much to pull free and the concho be lost i wouldn't think, plus it looks like the profile would be a lot higher. JMO

[JohnD]

Skald,

I know this is an older thread and I don't know if you worked it out yet or not, But....

If you use solid brass (or Stainless Steel) rivets, or, what I think would be the better solution, solid brass(or SS)screws, you wouldn't have the problem with the plating coming off later. The brass (or SS) and sliver would solder together without issue with silver solder and you could attach to the leather item easily with the screw or rivet. Just had to add my .02

John

P.S.

The eyelet could be done by soldering a silver ring to a brass or SS grommet. Although I'm not sure how a small, thin brass eyelet or grommet would fare with the heat required for silver solder.

[Spinner]

Looking at sites like these: http://www.biker-wallets.com/ and http://www.onetooman...ther/index.html you see quite some "custom made silver details", and I don't know really how they make them. I do have some experience both from wax carving, casting and soldering etc. when it comes to silver, but maybe that makes me even more confused. I mean, how do you make "snap buttons", rivets etc. with those silver adornments? I haven't seen things like these IRL, just pictures, so it's a but difficult to grasp. And I don't have like $500 to purchase a wallet, just for looking at.

So, if anyone have a clue, or even experience from anything similar, please fill me in!

Not sure if you noticed Skald, but you partially answered your own question. If you browse through the biker-wallets.com website you'll see that they also sell their wallet parts - snaps, clips, rings, etc. as well as the wallets: http://www.biker-wallets.com/custom-handmade-wallets-2/new-925-sterling-silver-skull-wallet-snap-bws-202/

Thanks for the resource though, I haven't seen a number of those snaps and rings available anywhere else and might have to pick up a few.

[Skald]

Not sure if you noticed Skald, but you partially answered your own question. If you browse through the biker-wallets.com website you'll see that they also sell their wallet parts - snaps, clips, rings, etc. as well as the wallets: http://www.biker-wal...t-snap-bws-202/

Thanks for the resource though, I haven't seen a number of those snaps and rings available anywhere else and might have to pick up a few.

I'm a bit "uptight", and don't want to use other peoples stuff more than absolutely necessary, so I'll try to stay clear from these parts as well hehehe... I can go as far as to use real HARDWARE such as snaps etc., but as much as possible should be my own design and creation.

[WinterBear]

I'm looking at those things on the websites and wondering if they are following the legal regs for anything sold as sterling, or if they are unintentionally misbranding. The snaps on those findings probably aren't silver, just silver colored, so the snaps as a whole may have an issue with being legally marketed as sterling--But, it depends on whether the snap would be an exemption and what the regs are in the state the business is located in.

See, the jewelry industry is very tightly regulated as to what is allowed to carry the "ster." or ".925" quality marks. In order for a jeweler to legally market something as sterling, and quality mark it as .925 or ster., the entire "silver" colored portions of the object must be .925 pure silver by weight. That means any portion that is colored similarly or has the appearance of being colored similarly, (e.g., solder, coins, and most findings, stainless steel portions, some buckle hardware, etc.) must be offset by a certain amount of fine silver (.999 pure) so the item as a whole is 925 parts out of 1000 pure silver. A deviance of only 4 parts per 1000 is allowed.

This also means that silver colored platings or portions also have to be offset, even if it is platinum--some fine silver has to be added to offset the platinum.

The federal regs allow some exemptions (see below), but some states do not--if is it silver colored and somehow attached, the entire object must be .925 pure silver to be marketed as sterling. I believe the regs of some countries are even more stringent and typically do not allow for the exemptions listed below.

Most jewelers I know will follow the "pure silver of my jewelery is .925 of the entire weight" and do not try to figure out which exemptions are and aren't allowed in each state, usually because they sell their jewelry in several different states or online. These jewelers offset the solder and findings added to sterling or coin items by adding weighed amounts of fine silver, usually in the bezels, filigree, or ear-wires, to make their item legally able to be marketed and quality marked as sterling everywhere.

----

§ 23.6 Misrepresentation as to silver content.

( a ) It is unfair or deceptive to misrepresent that an industry product contains silver, or to misrepresent an industry product as having a silver content, plating, electroplating, or coating.

( b ) It is unfair or deceptive to mark, describe, or otherwise represent all or part of an industry product as "silver," "solid silver," "Sterling Silver," "Sterling," or the abbreviation "Ster." unless it is at least 925/1,000ths pure silver.

( c ) It is unfair or deceptive to mark, describe, or otherwise represent all or part of an industry product as "coin" or "coin silver" unless it is at least 900/1,000ths pure silver.

( d ) It is unfair or deceptive to mark, describe, or otherwise represent all or part of an industry product as being plated or coated with silver unless all significant surfaces of the product or part contain a plating or coating of silver that is of substantial thickness.

( e ) The provisions of this section relating to markings and descriptions of industry products and parts thereof are subject to the applicable tolerances of the National Stamping Act or any amendment thereof.

Note 1 to § 23.6: The National Stamping Act provides that silverplated articles shall not "be stamped, branded, engraved or imprinted with the word 'sterling' or the word 'coin,' either alone or in conjunction with other words or marks." 15 U.S.C. 297(a)

Note 2 to § 23.6: Exemptions recognized in the assay of silver industry products are listed in the appendix.

Appendix:

( c ) Exemptions recognized in the industry and not to be considered in any assay for quality of a silver industry product include screws, rivets, springs, spring pins for wrist watch straps; posts and separable backs of lapel buttons; wire pegs, posts, and nuts used for applying mountings or other ornaments, which mountings or ornaments shall be of the quality marked; pin stems (e.g., of badges, brooches, emblem pins, hat pins, and scarf pins, etc.); levers for belt buckles; blades and skeletons of pocket knives; field pieces and bezels for lockets; bracelet and necklace snap tongues; any other joints, catches, or screws; and metallic parts completely and permanently encased in a nonmetallic covering.

[Skald]

I'm looking at those things on the websites and wondering if they are following the legal regs for anything sold as sterling, or if they are unintentionally misbranding. The snaps on those findings probably aren't silver, just silver colored, so the snaps as a whole may have an issue with being legally marketed as sterling--But, it depends on whether the snap would be an exemption and what the regs are in the state the business is located in.

See, the jewelry industry is very tightly regulated as to what is allowed to carry the "ster." or ".925" quality marks. In order for a jeweler to legally market something as sterling, and quality mark it as .925 or ster., the entire "silver" colored portions of the object must be .925 pure silver by weight. That means any portion that is colored similarly or has the appearance of being colored similarly, (e.g., solder, coins, and most findings, stainless steel portions, some buckle hardware, etc.) must be offset by a certain amount of fine silver (.999 pure) so the item as a whole is 925 parts out of 1000 pure silver. A deviance of only 4 parts per 1000 is allowed.

This also means that silver colored platings or portions also have to be offset, even if it is platinum--some fine silver has to be added to offset the platinum.

The federal regs allow some exemptions (see below), but some states do not--if is it silver colored and somehow attached, the entire object must be .925 pure silver to be marketed as sterling. I believe the regs of some countries are even more stringent and typically do not allow for the exemptions listed below.

Most jewelers I know will follow the "pure silver of my jewelery is .925 of the entire weight" and do not try to figure out which exemptions are and aren't allowed in each state, usually because they sell their jewelry in several different states or online. These jewelers offset the solder and findings added to sterling or coin items by adding weighed amounts of fine silver, usually in the bezels, filigree, or ear-wires, to make their item legally able to be marketed and quality marked as sterling everywhere.

----

§ 23.6 Misrepresentation as to silver content.

( a ) It is unfair or deceptive to misrepresent that an industry product contains silver, or to misrepresent an industry product as having a silver content, plating, electroplating, or coating.

( b ) It is unfair or deceptive to mark, describe, or otherwise represent all or part of an industry product as "silver," "solid silver," "Sterling Silver," "Sterling," or the abbreviation "Ster." unless it is at least 925/1,000ths pure silver.

( c ) It is unfair or deceptive to mark, describe, or otherwise represent all or part of an industry product as "coin" or "coin silver" unless it is at least 900/1,000ths pure silver.

( d ) It is unfair or deceptive to mark, describe, or otherwise represent all or part of an industry product as being plated or coated with silver unless all significant surfaces of the product or part contain a plating or coating of silver that is of substantial thickness.

( e ) The provisions of this section relating to markings and descriptions of industry products and parts thereof are subject to the applicable tolerances of the National Stamping Act or any amendment thereof.

Note 1 to § 23.6: The National Stamping Act provides that silverplated articles shall not "be stamped, branded, engraved or imprinted with the word 'sterling' or the word 'coin,' either alone or in conjunction with other words or marks." 15 U.S.C. 297(a)

Note 2 to § 23.6: Exemptions recognized in the assay of silver industry products are listed in the appendix.

Appendix:

( c ) Exemptions recognized in the industry and not to be considered in any assay for quality of a silver industry product include screws, rivets, springs, spring pins for wrist watch straps; posts and separable backs of lapel buttons; wire pegs, posts, and nuts used for applying mountings or other ornaments, which mountings or ornaments shall be of the quality marked; pin stems (e.g., of badges, brooches, emblem pins, hat pins, and scarf pins, etc.); levers for belt buckles; blades and skeletons of pocket knives; field pieces and bezels for lockets; bracelet and necklace snap tongues; any other joints, catches, or screws; and metallic parts completely and permanently encased in a nonmetallic covering.

The "silver(color)" issue is always present if you order stuff from eBay, in best case you'll get pure silver, sometimes silver plated, and sometimes no silver at all, but "silver color" - and they are not always so nice as to be clear what they mean by silver.

Here in Sweden, stamping silver ain't necessary any longer (by law). But most people who deals with it does it anyway, as people still want stamps as some sort of proof of what they just bought. Making snaps etc. directly out of silver is probably not a good idea, since it's not very good for that particular usage. Anyone who have made for example a money clip will know why. So it's more a practical thing, and less greed if you make the decoration part of silver, and the rest of stainless steel for example.

[WinterBear]

Whoops! My fault, I forgot to look at your country Skald. Of course, differing countries have different regulations. All that garbage I posted was the general US regs.

If you were to make your own castings out of sterling, and attach stainless snaps with a brass screw--then you could say "custom sterling accents with stainless steel hardware" and everybody'd be happy. I think the snaps might fall under the US exception of "any other joints, catches, or screws" anyway, and would fall under something similar in Sweden if I'm reading what I've found correctly.

Have you considered using PMC? Some people have had good results with relief/bas relief work in silver, and production molding it by making a master "push mold" and firing the castings in a tiny kiln, similar to what glass workers use for beads. The items are a little more porous than a piece cast using the lost-wax methods or fabricated, but you can assemble pieces using a slurry mixed with water to make more complex forms, such as hollow filigree pendants, so it does have some advantages.

I wouldn't buy "silver" anything off of ebay for those reasons. Or gold, gemstones, whatever. Better to travel to a gem and mineral show or visit the local jewelers who are well respected. But you can make money clips from sterling if you know what you are doing. You simply need a heavy gauge, proper working, and proper tempering. I'd give a link to Kathy's work to show a nice example set with malachite, but she's migrating her website and the pictures are still down. I'll be visiting Kathy next week and I'll ask her about how those things might be put together. Being someone who hand-makes her work from the ground up, she might have some insight on the methods and assembly.

[Skald]

Whoops! My fault, I forgot to look at your country Skald. Of course, differing countries have different regulations. All that garbage I posted was the general US regs.

If you were to make your own castings out of sterling, and attach stainless snaps with a brass screw--then you could say "custom sterling accents with stainless steel hardware" and everybody'd be happy. I think the snaps might fall under the US exception of "any other joints, catches, or screws" anyway, and would fall under something similar in Sweden if I'm reading what I've found correctly.

Have you considered using PMC? Some people have had good results with relief/bas relief work in silver, and production molding it by making a master "push mold" and firing the castings in a tiny kiln, similar to what glass workers use for beads. The items are a little more porous than a piece cast using the lost-wax methods or fabricated, but you can assemble pieces using a slurry mixed with water to make more complex forms, such as hollow filigree pendants, so it does have some advantages.

I wouldn't buy "silver" anything off of ebay for those reasons. Or gold, gemstones, whatever. Better to travel to a gem and mineral show or visit the local jewelers who are well respected. But you can make money clips from sterling if you know what you are doing. You simply need a heavy gauge, proper working, and proper tempering. I'd give a link to Kathy's work to show a nice example set with malachite, but she's migrating her website and the pictures are still down. I'll be visiting Kathy next week and I'll ask her about how those things might be put together. Being someone who hand-makes her work from the ground up, she might have some insight on the methods and assembly.

Yeah no problem really, most people here are Americans so it's not easy to see I'm from not around.

I've never used PMC, but I might sooner or later. I am in a phase of putting together a small business, so I have to think cautiously about where I put my money right now, and make the right priorities.

Let me know about the website when it's up again, sounds interesting for sure. I've done some money clips, and you are right that you'll have to first heat it before bending it (preferably in a jig), and then strike it with a raw hide mallet or plastic mallet, you can also put it in a hmmm... tumbler(?) meant for polishing rocks, along with these small stainless steel balls etc. - and it will harden it up too. But then, after a year or so of use, the "strength" might very well die out, and you'll need to tamper it over again. Because of that, I wouldn't try using snaps etc. out of silver only. Opening and closing a wallet several times a day, would kill the "vigor" of the silver in quite a short time I guess. I am using a silver money clip I made right now, as a prototype, to see if I dare try selling them.

[WinterBear]

Yeah no problem really, most people here are Americans so it's not easy to see I'm from not around.

I've never used PMC, but I might sooner or later. I am in a phase of putting together a small business, so I have to think cautiously about where I put my money right now, and make the right priorities.

Let me know about the website when it's up again, sounds interesting for sure. I've done some money clips, and you are right that you'll have to first heat it before bending it (preferably in a jig), and then strike it with a raw hide mallet or plastic mallet, you can also put it in a hmmm... tumbler(?) meant for polishing rocks, along with these small stainless steel balls etc. - and it will harden it up too. But then, after a year or so of use, the "strength" might very well die out, and you'll need to tamper it over again. Because of that, I wouldn't try using snaps etc. out of silver only. Opening and closing a wallet several times a day, would kill the "vigor" of the silver in quite a short time I guess. I am using a silver money clip I made right now, as a prototype, to see if I dare try selling them.

From what I understand, she forges the clips. The metal is shaped, then tempered by working and heating/cooling cycles. She also starts with a heavier gauge than most I see. I think the clip is mostly meant for dressing up or a gift. Daily day-to-day would ruin the mirror finish, the chasing, and the malachite cab, but the piece is actually pretty robust. I'd honestly expect it to outlast the brass or nickle ones I see sold most often.

You ought to take some sketches to a smallish jeweler and see what they'd charge you to job-lot a few dozen. A big place wouldn't want to do it unless you were buying a lot (100 or 1000 + pieces), and a really small one might not have the abilities/equipment to do multiple castings. I'd suggest some folks I know, except the shipping here and back would probably cost more than the work! Not to mention, US silver prices are pretty steep right now.