Question Regarding Round Knife

[WinterBear]

Ok, a relativity raw novice here, and I'm looking for some good advice. I'm looking at what I want to do, and have determined that one of the things I will need is a round knife/head knife. And which is which, or are the two terms more or less interchangeable?

There are several options in my price range, but it seems to be neck and neck with the Osborn and the Stolhman knives I've listed in the poll above as far as basic reviews and price. So I've come to ask those who are most familiar with these things to help me decide what I should get, or, tell me why I should get neither and get something else!

[dirtclod]

Between those two choices i would get the Osborne but in a 4 inch or smaller blade. A 5 inch blade is to big for regular work a 5 inch blade gets you to far away from your work IMHO.

[terrymac]

I would check and see what Bruce Johnson (member on this forum) has to offer. Advantages of buying from him are going to be a good quality knife and sharp, ready to go to work.

Terry

[KAYAK45]

I would check and see what Bruce Johnson (member on this forum) has to offer. Advantages of buying from him are going to be a good quality knife and sharp, ready to go to work.

Terry

I have ten round knives from various sources and all the NAMES of dead men who made them. I cannot get a good edge on the new ones!

Buy ONE good knife from Bruce Johnson and be done with it. Good hunting!

[Art]

Tip to Tip 4" or 5" tops

Buy from Bruce Johnson or Bob Douglas

Rose nlib.

Osborne (Newark) nlib.

Osborne (Harrison) ok once you have a decent edge on it

Gomph (New York) nlib

For newer makers:

Buchman decd.

Dozier

Zalesack

Skiving knives:

Robert Beard

George Barnsley nlib. decd.

nlib (no longer in business)

decd (deceased)

Art

[WinterBear]

Thanks for the replies and the advice, much appreciated.

[bruce johnson]

Like Art, I prefer a 4 to 5 inch knife overall. For some cuts I use one down to 3-1/2". I roll a round knife to cut fringe, and will go to a big knife then. I like to skive with a wider knife too, and about a 5-1/2 feels right to me. I'd agree with Art's makers listing also and add a couple. I think the Rose knives are the top of the scale - they are hard. That makes them take longer to sharpen, but once they are right, they go a long time with just stropping. Then I'd give a slight edge to older Gomphs followed closely by the Newark marked CS Osbornes and older Harrison CS Osbornes. I have a couple Harringtons and they are about like the Gomph or Newark CSOs. I have had several Clyde and Shapleigh knives that I liked too. They are maybe a bit softer than the others, but not so soft you spend half your time resetting the edge. They make a real nice knife, pretty forgiving, and you can learn a lot about the mechanics of putting a good edge on one and not be taking all day to do it.

For modern makers, I have had recent CS Osbornes and they are a notch to a step lower than the Clyde/Shapleighs to me. I've got a Dozier I like a lot, but he has had a really long wait time. I have had some Bill Buchmann and Linneman knives and they have some real fans too. I know one person on the forum here bought a Knipscheild (sp?) knife at Sheridan and likes it. There are some other newer makers putting out leather knives, but I haven't got to use any others. These good modern handmade knives have a fair price on them, so there is some sticker shock comparing them to a new Osborne or Stohlman.

Another consideration when you shop for knives is a good cutting surface and sharpening system. I like high density poly with a smooth finish to cut on and glass to skive on. I like the diamond stones or wet-dry abrasive paper to profile. I set my final edge with a slack belt sytem with a superfine grit. I follow that up with green compound. I also strop with green compound to maintain.

[WinterBear]

Like Art, I prefer a 4 to 5 inch knife overall. For some cuts I use one down to 3-1/2". I roll a round knife to cut fringe, and will go to a big knife then. I like to skive with a wider knife too, and about a 5-1/2 feels right to me. I'd agree with Art's makers listing also and add a couple. I think the Rose knives are the top of the scale - they are hard. That makes them take longer to sharpen, but once they are right, they go a long time with just stropping. Then I'd give a slight edge to older Gomphs followed closely by the Newark marked CS Osbornes and older Harrison CS Osbornes. I have a couple Harringtons and they are about like the Gomph or Newark CSOs. I have had several Clyde and Shapleigh knives that I liked too. They are maybe a bit softer than the others, but not so soft you spend half your time resetting the edge. They make a real nice knife, pretty forgiving, and you can learn a lot about the mechanics of putting a good edge on one and not be taking all day to do it.

For modern makers, I have had recent CS Osbornes and they are a notch to a step lower than the Clyde/Shapleighs to me. I've got a Dozier I like a lot, but he has had a really long wait time. I have had some Bill Buchmann and Linneman knives and they have some real fans too. I know one person on the forum here bought a Knipscheild (sp?) knife at Sheridan and likes it. There are some other newer makers putting out leather knives, but I haven't got to use any others. These good modern handmade knives have a fair price on them, so there is some sticker shock comparing them to a new Osborne or Stohlman.

Another consideration when you shop for knives is a good cutting surface and sharpening system. I like high density poly with a smooth finish to cut on and glass to skive on. I like the diamond stones or wet-dry abrasive paper to profile. I set my final edge with a slack belt sytem with a superfine grit. I follow that up with green compound. I also strop with green compound to maintain.

Ok, now I know what to look for, I have a feeling I will be contacting you soon. I've looked up you website and quite like a lot of what I see there. A good tool that is used because it works the way it is mean to, and is used a lot, has a certain look to it, and I see that with the knives you showcase. I also quite like the lacing tools--one of those would have made a few projects easier!

[RWB]

Like Art, I prefer a 4 to 5 inch knife overall. For some cuts I use one down to 3-1/2". I roll a round knife to cut fringe, and will go to a big knife then. I like to skive with a wider knife too, and about a 5-1/2 feels right to me. I'd agree with Art's makers listing also and add a couple. I think the Rose knives are the top of the scale - they are hard. That makes them take longer to sharpen, but once they are right, they go a long time with just stropping. Then I'd give a slight edge to older Gomphs followed closely by the Newark marked CS Osbornes and older Harrison CS Osbornes. I have a couple Harringtons and they are about like the Gomph or Newark CSOs. I have had several Clyde and Shapleigh knives that I liked too. They are maybe a bit softer than the others, but not so soft you spend half your time resetting the edge. They make a real nice knife, pretty forgiving, and you can learn a lot about the mechanics of putting a good edge on one and not be taking all day to do it.

For modern makers, I have had recent CS Osbornes and they are a notch to a step lower than the Clyde/Shapleighs to me. I've got a Dozier I like a lot, but he has had a really long wait time. I have had some Bill Buchmann and Linneman knives and they have some real fans too. I know one person on the forum here bought a Knipscheild (sp?) knife at Sheridan and likes it. There are some other newer makers putting out leather knives, but I haven't got to use any others. These good modern handmade knives have a fair price on them, so there is some sticker shock comparing them to a new Osborne or Stohlman.

Another consideration when you shop for knives is a good cutting surface and sharpening system. I like high density poly with a smooth finish to cut on and glass to skive on. I like the diamond stones or wet-dry abrasive paper to profile. I set my final edge with a slack belt sytem with a superfine grit. I follow that up with green compound. I also strop with green compound to maintain.

Bruce,

How are you sharpening your knives? I have a couple Rose knives that I used to really like, but they won't hold the edge that they used to. I can still get them scary sharp, but they will roll that edge pretty easy anymore. Almost like the temper got taken out of them, but I know I haven't. Just curious what your method is.

Thanks,

Ross Brunk

[bruce johnson]

Bruce,

How are you sharpening your knives? I have a couple Rose knives that I used to really like, but they won't hold the edge that they used to. I can still get them scary sharp, but they will roll that edge pretty easy anymore. Almost like the temper got taken out of them, but I know I haven't. Just curious what your method is.

Thanks,

Ross Brunk

Ross,

I got this link from another post here a couple years ago, but can't find that post at the moment. Here is the link - Slack Belt sharpening . This method ends up with a slightly curved edge on the blade. Some people call it a Moran edge. It is sort of like a secondary bevel to back up the edge, only an infinite bevel instead of a fixed angle. This has made a the most durable edge for me. I was doing a light secondary bevel (Herb French's book) but if I got a really thin edge two things happened. Either I chipped out some edges when I was cutting curves bcause the blade was to thin or I rolled an edge. That was the "forgiving" part of the Clyde knives because I could fix it pretty easily. Once I tried this slack belt deal, It hasn't been the issue.

I have a Harbor Freight 1x30 vertical belt sander and the belt grits they mention in the forum from Lee Valley. I also found another place to do the slack belt effect at a steeper angle. On my 4x30 benchtop belt sander there is a small gap between the roller on the end and the flat top that supports the belt. If I back off the tensioning lever slightly, it releases enough tension on the belt to be slack. It is good place to do things like the new Osborne strap punches and make a sharper edge that will punch way easier but won't roll. I do some of my clicker dies there too if they have a flat edge. I have some pretty wore out 300something grit belts I save for that. Some of the new edges are dull enough I go through a few grits to finally raise the foil edge. I think they said in that forum link that if you don't raise an edge in a couple passes you need to be using a coarser grit. Pretty much what I do.

The only real fooler I have is sometimes I get a short foil edge pretty straight out from stropping but not wearing it off. It looks and feels good, but when I go to cutting hard leather it rolls. Stropping with a more agressive compound (I use gray for that) and then going to the green takes care of it.

[hidepounder]

Ok, a relativity raw novice here, and I'm looking for some good advice. I'm looking at what I want to do, and have determined that one of the things I will need is a round knife/head knife. And which is which, or are the two terms more or less interchangeable?

There are several options in my price range, but it seems to be neck and neck with the Osborn and the Stolhman knives I've listed in the poll above as far as basic reviews and price. So I've come to ask those who are most familiar with these things to help me decide what I should get, or, tell me why I should get neither and get something else!

The difference in definition between a head knife and a round knife elude me also, however, from what I have gleaned from Bob Douglas, The points on a head knife do not extend below the "base" of the blade where where on a round knife the points of the blade extend considerable past the "base". Bruce or Art or someone more knowledgeable might expand on this (or correct me).

I don't think you should limit yourself to just Osborne or Stohlman knives. I think there are a lot of knives to choose from. If it were me, I would contact Bob Douglas and Bruce Johnson and talk to them. Personally I pefer the old Gomph and Rose knives.

For newer makers:

Buchman decd.

Dozier

Zalesack

Art

Art, I'd like to add a couple more current makers:

Brett Bronson - making hollow ground round knives.

Nick Demchenko from Saskashewan (haven't seen his knives yet)

J Cook - making cast knives. (haven't heard much about him lately)

Terry Knipshield - Knip Csutom Knives www.knipknives.com (I REALLY like mine!)

Like Art, I prefer a 4 to 5 inch knife overall. For some cuts I use one down to 3-1/2". I roll a round knife to cut fringe, and will go to a big knife then. I like to skive with a wider knife too, and about a 5-1/2 feels right to me. I'd agree with Art's makers listing also and add a couple. I think the Rose knives are the top of the scale - they are hard. That makes them take longer to sharpen, but once they are right, they go a long time with just stropping. Then I'd give a slight edge to older Gomphs followed closely by the Newark marked CS Osbornes and older Harrison CS Osbornes. I have a couple Harringtons and they are about like the Gomph or Newark CSOs. I have had several Clyde and Shapleigh knives that I liked too. They are maybe a bit softer than the others, but not so soft you spend half your time resetting the edge. They make a real nice knife, pretty forgiving, and you can learn a lot about the mechanics of putting a good edge on one and not be taking all day to do it.

For modern makers, I have had recent CS Osbornes and they are a notch to a step lower than the Clyde/Shapleighs to me. I've got a Dozier I like a lot, but he has had a really long wait time. I have had some Bill Buchmann and Linneman knives and they have some real fans too. I know one person on the forum here bought a Knipscheild (sp?) knife at Sheridan and likes it. There are some other newer makers putting out leather knives, but I haven't got to use any others. These good modern handmade knives have a fair price on them, so there is some sticker shock comparing them to a new Osborne or Stohlman.

Another consideration when you shop for knives is a good cutting surface and sharpening system. I like high density poly with a smooth finish to cut on and glass to skive on. I like the diamond stones or wet-dry abrasive paper to profile. I set my final edge with a slack belt sytem with a superfine grit. I follow that up with green compound. I also strop with green compound to maintain.

I agree and second every statement Bruce has made....he is right on the money!

I think most gear makers and saddle makers like the larger knives like Art and Bruce do. I prefer smaller knives, but then I'm not a saddle maker and am probably doing a little different work. I have a 3" Rose that is my favorite of all knives....I kind of save it and try not to let it touch the bench. I use a 3-3/4" Gomph more than anything else. It's my utility knife. I skive with a large Gomph. I have a medium sized Buchmann which has been a great knife and my latest is a Philly pattern knife from Terry Knipshield. I swore I wouldn't own another SS knife, but my Buchmann is really good so I took a chance on the Knip and WOW am I impressed! (Thanks Terry!!!)

The bottom line is a person has a lot of choices and I feel strongly that one would be well advised to be patient and buy a really good quality knife rather than one of the more affordable alternatives.

Just my two cents worth....

Bobby

Edited June 16, 2011 by hidepounder

[BigRiverLeather]

I have all three of the blades you listed (J Cook as other). The cook is off getting some TLC right now but between the Osborne and the Stohlman, I just like the stoutness of the Stohlman. However, the Osborne blade can be cut down to size to fit your hand (I've not done that...yet) but the Stohlman is steel and is what it is. I actually like them both once I got over my blade snobiness. I will usually grab which ever one I think is sharper. at the time.

[gtwister09]

You have received a lot of great information here on the makers, types, sharpening and so forth.

I have used the slack belt system for a long time. I have a platen attachment for the 4" wide belt sander that makes it a little easier than what Bruce is talking about. Like Bruce I have used the 1X30 belt sander for quite some time on all my knives, axes and other things. I started using it many many years ago due to the availability and cost of them rather than making the step up to some major knife making grinders or sander. They also are very quick to setup, profile and sharpen with. After the initial profiling of a new knife it doesn't require you to progress through the lower grits unless you chip it like Bruce says. Of course like any non knife making sander they can burn up a knife quickly if you hold it there too long. The link Bruce gave you has a bunch of guidelines, gotchas, how-tos and equipment. I like this system because it creates a Moran grind/edge rather than a single flat grind.

I haven't tried Nick's or Terry's round knifes but I have many of the others and like Bob and Bruce I like the Rose's. I have also had Marlins and others that haven't been listed as well.

One thing I might add to Bob's head/round knife comparison is that head knifes generally have less material from the bolster to the tip of the knife than round knifes. The round knives tend to be deeper and more round versus the flatter head knives. Likewise there are additional differences in the pattern knife styles as well.

Regards,

Ben

Edited June 16, 2011 by gtwister09

[rawhide1]

I have three knives a old Osborne with a star on it, a rose, and a Gomph. My favorite is the Osborne it just seems to hold a edge better for me. I think I paid 30 bucks for the Osborne and 25 for the rose. The Rose needed a new handle on it which was no big deal. I got the Osborne and Rose off of fleabay. And a fella I know gave me the Gomph he's a junk man and knew I did some leather work so he give it to me. So I guess the point I'm trying to make is ya can get a good knife bought right if ya watch the fleabay and have some patience.

Best of luck, Mike

[hidepounder]

Couple of things:

First, Bruce just listed a really nice Gomph knife in fantastic condition. Anyone interested in picking up a good knife....well here is one at a decent price! http://brucejohnsonleather.com/content/index.php/leather_tools_for_sale/

Secondly.....we haven't discussed the pro's and con's of stainless steel, which in my mind is the really big difference in quality knives. It seems like once a year this subject comes up and we might as well address it now. As I stated earlier, I swore I would stop buying stainless steel tools and then went and purchased a stainless pattern knife. I've proven to myself over and over that tool steel makes the best tools as oppossed to stainless tools. Stainless tools look awfully nice on the bench! They are bright and shiney and very low maintenance and I'm the very first to say that I am impressed by a bench loaded with beautiful tools!!!! My tool steel tools rust and look dull and are high maintenance in that regard, however once they are sharpened they hold their edge longer with less maintenance. So what would I prefer....extreme sharpness and performance or good tools that really look killer on my bench and get the job done handely as well? That can be a hard decision and it's a conflict for me! I love tools....I can't help it, it's a disease that I can't control, but accept for what it is, LOL! I believe in my heart that my stainless blades (which includes edgers, etc.) do not hold their edge like my tool steel tools do. This is especially true of the older hand forged blades which are commonly found in the old Rose, Gomph and Osborne tools. Those old tools are difficult to sharpen, but once they are sharp, they seem to stay sharp longer and require minimal stropping for maintenance. That's worth a lot to me. I want my tools so sharp that my skin crawls when I get close to them. Most of the time I have to force my hand to grasp a round knife because it's scared to death of it, LOL!! That's when you know you're tools are sharp! I mean the hair on my arm literally raises in anticipation of being within three feet of my head knives. Okay, okay that's, BS, but you get the point (pun intended, LOL!). It is vital that our tools be that sharp! Over the years I haven't experienced that level of performance with my stainless tools. Am I talking extreme? Of course! Is there a compromise? Of course! There are makers out there who are using stainless materials which perform at a very high level. It must be about the maker because there doesn't seem to be the same consistency in high performance stainless tools that there is those made of high carbon tool steel. However! There are makers out there who have been able to achieve very high quality stainless tools that perform fairly close to old tool steel. In general I have decided that I am better served by the tools manufactured with high carbon tool steel rather than stainless steel, but I try to keep and open mind am sometimes surprised as I was recently. The bottom line is there are choices and it's important that the buyer is aware of the pros and cons and makes an INFORMED decision regarding the looks, performance and value of the knife they are buying. I hope Art and Bruce and some of you other pros will weigh in here because I know that you all will have different opinions.

Hope this helps.......

Bobby

Edited June 17, 2011 by hidepounder

[Knipper]

This is an interesting discussion! Bob's observations about stainless merits some further comments. First of all, I have no prejudice against ANY kind of steel, provided its used for what its intended to do. People often say "high carbon tool steel" VS. "stainless steel". Well, the right grades of stainless (for cutlery applications) IS high carbon, and sometimes they contain more carbon than their non-stainless counterparts. The reason stainless steel got a bad rep in the cutlery business to begin with, is that the manufacturers used a lower grade of stainless that failed to hold an edge. People got burned and swore off ALL stainless. For example, take the 440 series of stainless. If you buy a blade that is marked "440 stainless", beware...because there are three grades used for cutlery: 440A, 440B, and 440C. If there are no other markings, its probably 440A, which only barely holds an edge for any length of time. But its cheaper, and saving a buck is all some companies care about. The only really good grade as far as I'm concerned is 440C because it contains at least 1% carbon, which is what makes the blade hard and take/hold an edge. If the maker wants to let his customers know exactly what they're getting, he should be marking the blade with the actual grade, not some generic term. I know Bill Buchmann used 440C, the best grade for that series, and Bill made some fine knives. Some manufacturers also use the term "surgical stainless". Well, there ain't no such thing. Ask a mill to run you a batch of surgical stainless steel and they'll scratch their heads and say "Huh?" (probably 440A again...)

The point is, each type of steel (high carbon tool steel and high carbon stainless) have their own unique advantages and disadvantages. You can heat treat high carbon tool steel, such as O1, L6, 5160, using special techniques and get an almost indestructible blade that holds an edge very well. Its more forgiving in heat treating i.e. if you make a mistake, you can take the same piece of steel and start over again. Bob already mentioned the disadvantage...it rusts. You can sharpen your head knife before you go to bed and have the best possible edge only to wake up and find it is duller than the night before. Any moisture in the air (on in your knife sheath) will collect along the edge and corrode away (on a microscopic level) that nice edge you worked so hard to get. Of course the big advantage for stainless is that it resists rust (in the right environment, such as close to the ocean, continued exposure to the salt air will even rust or pit stainless). You can get stainless just as hard or soft as you want, just like the high carbon tool steels. Stainless' disadvantage is that its not very flexible as to heat treating. If you do it wrong, it won't be the same the second time around. I use ATS-34 for my blades, and sometimes 154CM (ATS-34 is a Japanese copy of Crucible's 154CM). They have a Rockwell hardness of 60. It's a great steel and so far I've had nothing but compliments on my head knife blades. Using green compound to strop them(never use red or brown, they're not intended for steel!!) they stay sharp for a long time.

Now pick your favorite steel, make sure its heat treated correctly and what's left?...edge geometry. Other members mentioned this in this thread. If you don't have good edge geometry, good steel and heat treating won't make any difference! I agree with those that favor a tapered, convex (Moran, or apple seed) edge), like that on an axe. All my experiments with edges for head knives confirmed that the convex edge cuts through leather better than either a flat grind or hollow ground edge. But even convex edges have to have the right geometry. There's definitely a "sweet spot" on the edge angle that just glides through leather. If you're off a degree or two either way, it just doesn't cut as well...but once you find it, you can really tell the difference!

Terry Knipschield

P.S. Glad you like the knife, Bob !!

Couple of things:

First, Bruce just listed a really nice Gomph knife in fantastic condition. Anyone interested in picking up a good knife....well here is one at a decent price! http://brucejohnsonleather.com/content/index.php/leather_tools_for_sale/

Secondly.....we haven't discussed the pro's and con's of stainless steel, which in my mind is the really big difference in quality knives. It seems like once a year this subject comes up and we might as well address it now. As I stated earlier, I swore I would stop buying stainless steel tools and then went and purchased a stainless pattern knife. I've proven to myself over and over that tool steel makes the best tools as oppossed to stainless tools. Stainless tools look awfully nice on the bench! They are bright and shiney and very low maintenance and I'm the very first to say that I am impressed by a bench loaded with beautiful tools!!!! My tool steel tools rust and look dull and are high maintenance in that regard, however once they are sharpened they hold their edge longer with less maintenance. So what would I prefer....extreme sharpness and performance or good tools that really look killer on my bench and get the job done handely as well? That can be a hard decision and it's a conflict for me! I love tools....I can't help it, it's a disease that I can't control, but accept for what it is, LOL! I believe in my heart that my stainless blades (which includes edgers, etc.) do not hold their edge like my tool steel tools do. This is especially true of the older hand forged blades which are commonly found in the old Rose, Gomph and Osborne tools. Those old tools are difficult to sharpen, but once they are sharp, they seem to stay sharp longer and require minimal stropping for maintenance. That's worth a lot to me. I want my tools so sharp that my skin crawls when I get close to them. Most of the time I have to force my hand to grasp a round knife because it's scared to death of it, LOL!! That's when you know you're tools are sharp! I mean the hair on my arm literally raises in anticipation of being within three feet of my head knives. Okay, okay that's, BS, but you get the point (pun intended, LOL!). It is vital that our tools be that sharp! Over the years I haven't experienced that level of performance with my stainless tools. Am I talking extreme? Of course! Is there a compromise? Of course! There are makers out there who are using stainless materials which perform at a very high level. It must be about the maker because there doesn't seem to be the same consistency in high performance stainless tools that there is those made of high carbon tool steel. However! There are makers out there who have been able to achieve very high quality stainless tools that perform fairly close to old tool steel. In general I have decided that I am better served by the tools manufactured with high carbon tool steel rather than stainless steel, but I try to keep and open mind am sometimes surprised as I was recently. The bottom line is there are choices and it's important that the buyer is aware of the pros and cons and makes an INFORMED decision regarding the looks, performance and value of the knife they are buying. I hope Art and Bruce and some of you other pros will weigh in here because I know that you all will have different opinions.

Hope this helps.......

Bobby

Edited June 18, 2011 by Knipper

[Knipper]

Just a word of caution on the Damascus blade. Call them and ask what steel they are using!!!! If they don't know, I'd be hesitant to buy it. If they say its Damasteel (from Sweden) or some of the stainless damascus made by Mike Norris, Devin or Rob Thomas or Chad Nichols, then I'd be confident in getting one. Oh...ask them how hard it is ( what Rockwell (RC) hardness the blade is...) Again, if they don't know, be wary. It should be around RC 59-61. Otherwise, you may just be buying a pretty blade that won't work well as a tool. Just my two cents worth. (Would the pattern of the Damascus set up some additional friction or drag with the leather?...I don't know, but think about it)

Terry Knipschield

[WinterBear]

Dagnabbit. Every post I've made over the past day hasn't posted. Let's try again...

Seems is more complex than I thought. I'll have to put some more thought into this so I get exactly and precisely what I want and be very happy with my purchase. Look are secondary for use for me on a lot of things, for the simple reason that I have more than plenty paperweights as it is!

Terry/Knipper, Bobby/HidePounder, Art, Ben/gtwister09, Mike/rawhide, and Bruce Johnson:

Thanks for the advice and sharpening tips, especially on the differences on the different grades of carbon steel, damascus, and stainless. Luckily, humidity isn't much of a problem around here unless someone is foolish enough to fall into the pond, so as long as I don't put anything away wet and keep the sharp stuff in a "camera box" (a wooden box that has a bunch of silica packets in to absorb the air-borne moisture), I dont think it will matter much to me as long as it will keep and edge and does what it is supposed to.

I'll do some more research and watch fleabay for a while. (Fleabay! I love it! )

Edited June 18, 2011 by WinterBear

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Damascus is an improperly used term nowadays, more correctly it should be called pattern welded. On my blacksmithing forum this material is covered quite extensively. In the case of the Tandy knives I feel that it is just for marketing, as the blades are made in China-at least the one I checked out. The fit,and finish wasn't that good either for that price.

As Knipper mentioned what is in the blade, and how it was heat treated is the most important aspect of a good knife. Take 1095 for example. With 95 points of carbon it can be heat treated to a brittle hard condition for use as a file, or tempered to a blue condition for making a spring. Same material with different heat treatments resulting in great differences in qualities.

I like regular carbon steels for blades, although materials like ATS34 may have changed my reluctance for stainless.

I picked up a couple of used head knives, and need to work on my technique,as I find them difficult to use. Razor knives are what i have used in the past.

[Knipper]

Yep...didn't mention the "10" series of tool steel...1095, 1086, 1075. I wouldn't go lower than 1086 personally though. I like the additional hardness allowed by the extra carbon. You're right about the "Damascus" term, but its almost universally know by that now. I prefer the term "pattern welded" as well.

Terry

Damascus is an improperly used term nowadays, more correctly it should be called pattern welded. On my blacksmithing forum this material is covered quite extensively. In the case of the Tandy knives I feel that it is just for marketing, as the blades are made in China-at least the one I checked out. The fit,and finish wasn't that good either for that price.

As Knipper mentioned what is in the blade, and how it was heat treated is the most important aspect of a good knife. Take 1095 for example. With 95 points of carbon it can be heat treated to a brittle hard condition for use as a file, or tempered to a blue condition for making a spring. Same material with different heat treatments resulting in great differences in qualities.

I like regular carbon steels for blades, although materials like ATS34 may have changed my reluctance for stainless.

I picked up a couple of used head knives, and need to work on my technique,as I find them difficult to use. Razor knives are what i have used in the past.

[gtwister09]

I can personally attest to the heat treatment or the lack thereof in ATS-34. I received a set of 3 knives from a major maker as a gift/trade several years ago. Two of the knives (both the head and half round knives) would only last 10-12 inches of cutting before I could start to feel a marked decrease in ability to cut. At first I thought that I had screwed up in sharpening but quickly ruled that out when comparing it to my other knifes as well as the third knife. In comparison, the other knife from this maker could last 10-20 times longer easily before sharpening. The Rose's and others lasted even longer.

I had the benefit of doing some major testing with cutting tools, materials and process for a defense contractor 15+ years ago with cryogenics and heat treat so I figured it was a lack of heat treat. Since then I have talked with the maker and we tried another one w/o heat treat and shazam my thoughts were confirmed. We could only cut 10-12 inches and feel the decreased ability to cut. Heat treated to 59-60 RC hardness and it lasted many times longer. As Terry said a nice shiny tool that wasn't much good as a tool until heat treated properly.

Regards,

Ben

[Art]

I am going to take a little different tack here and say, Buy your head knife, or any knife for that matter by the maker. I have made knives for a while (since the '80s) with my highest production in the '90s, maybe several hundred or so. In my experience, most really good makers know their steel quite intimately, and don't experiment with a lot of other steels. It takes time and a few mistakes to learn how to work and treat any steel and a whole bunch of different product just confuses matters. My favorite mill was Latrobe. Latrobe made bearing steel for Timken who owns them now. I was also a made in the USA freak so Latrobe and Crucible were my pets. Needless to say, most of my blades were made of 52100 or BG-42, both great steels if properly worked and heat treated. Of course 1095 and O-1 are steels that every good knifemaker learned their metallurgy heat treating. Crucible was the high tech mill of the steel world, they made, and are still making some steel with incredible technology, their particle metallurgy makes some really high tech and high performance steels that are good for knifemaking.

But I digress. What I am saying is it's all about the maker. You need to have used, or trust someone that has used a maker's knife to give you a recommendation. If a maker makes a not so good knife, don't expect to hear it on any forum, it just won't happen. If you want the real skinny on a knife, your going to have to get it eyeball to eyeball.

As far as edge profile, I prefer a teardrop profile. I like to leave more metal behind the edge than you get with a hollow ground profile. The disadvantage is that the teardrop (Moran, Appleseed, etc) will require some reprofile work sooner than a hollowgrind, but can still be resharpened in the field without too much effort, well at least until the thing becomes a cold chisel. I like steel behind the edge, if I wanted a thin knife, I would have ground a thin knife in the first place. But Art, how can you like Bill Buchman's knives, they are thin? Bill's knives are thin, and they were made to be thin, they were not made to be camp knives, but they work, damned well if I do say so. Nevertheless, thin knives have their problems too, you can snap off a tip in a heartbeat if you aren't careful. Another thing about edges, 15 degrees, use a matchbook to learn it and use it for your head knife, less than 15 and you are getting into fragile edge territory where it will last about 2 feet or less. You could use 18 or 20 degrees too, find what's best for you.

Last but not least, learn how to sharpen, read about it, get some old knives and practice, once the mystique is gone, it is just another skill in your toolkit, hell, you can (and I have) make reasonable money going from kitchen to kitchen sharpening knives. Food service folks don't have a clue about how to sharpen cutlery, and now they use steels that actually take metal off, so you will always have work. A 10 power loupe and a dry erase marker are necessary if you really want to learn to sharpen. I have heard some folks say that you only need to strop a head knife once it has been properly sharpened. Sorry, It ain't true folks, eventually the edge will round and no amount of stropping will set the edge back, a cork belt with compound will, and stones or abrasive belts will, but just loading a strop with green rouge is not going to do it, you have to learn to sharpen.

So to reiterate:

Rose

Gomph (Albany N.Y.)

C.S.Osborne (Newark)

The above are quality knives all of carbon steel, it is possible for them to be mishandled while sharpening which will cause soft spots, an experienced sharpener or knifemaker can grind these out, it takes some work and should be left to those who can. You can get lucky on eBay and sometimes not, you can buy from Bob Douglas or Bruce Johnson and get a good knife.

Bill Buchman

Bob Dozier

Dewey Peters

Gomph (Ellis Barns/Lonnie Height but I don't know who the real maker is)

Leather Wranglers (Paul Zalesack)

These are stainless steel knives, there are other makers, but I don't have knives by any of them yet so I can't give them a shout. The above are excellent cutting, quality knives.

Art

[hidepounder]

This has turned out to be an amazing thread thanks to the explanations by you pros. Thanks! But would you talk about edge geometry just a little? Without some of the more sophisticated equipment, sharpening a head knife can be a pretty difficult task. And if you are not sure what to look for you may never be able to achieve a really sharp edge. The equipment that I have really isn't very friendly for sharpening unless you have a much higher skill level and a lot more knowledge than I do. Consequently I sharpen by hand and that can be time consuming and frustrating. I use a variety of diamond stones and super fine sanding paper and I strop on a paper wheel (which is probably not good) and finally buff with green rouge. I'm hoping you guys will help me improve my techniques so that I am more efficient and successful.

I had a horrible time trying to keep my first head knife sharp. It was slways hit and miss....sometimes I would get it right and other times I could not and it never cut like it does now. I was not inept...I had pretty decent knife sharpening skills, except for the head knife. It wasn't until I met Bob Douglas that I learned that what I was trying to sharpen was never going to be sharp without being tuned up first. What Bob taught me was to better understand what the final 3/4" of that knife edge should look and feel like (edge geometry). He explained that most head knives straight out of the box had too much "shoulder" and had to thinned in order to achieve the optimal edge geometry. He showed me the difference in the look and feel of a knife that is tapered all the way down to the cutting edge as opposed to a knife with a constant thickness which is then tapered to the cutting edge. What a huge difference that little tune up made in the performance of my knives!!! This is not something that I could ever explain....it's something you have to see and maybe more importantly "feel" repeatedly until you are able to recognize the correct geometry. Terry and some of the other pros can translate all of this into angles and material thickness, etc. My point in all of this is that there really is quite a lot to learn about using a head knife and more importantly, maintaining one. One shouldn't be discouraged about getting started with one, but should begin the learning curve as soon as possible because life gets much better after you are able to use and maintain this fantastic tool!

Bobby

Edited June 19, 2011 by hidepounder

[gtwister09]

Amen to what Art said about sintering technology, Moran profile, confidence in the maker and so forth. The maker has to do their homework and have accuracy and repeatability. The only knives that I haven't tested or have are Paul's and Terry's. There is TONS of engineering information and comparisons to determine the ideal material for you. As Art stated you are depending upon the maker to know his/her material "intimately" to make the best decision in design that will yield the best knife for a particular purpose. However in order to do that we have to educate ourselves or depend upon others to guide us in our decision.

Sharpening cheap kitchen knifes is a great way to learn the skill of sharpening on a slack belt system. As I said earlier, after the initial profile it is relatively quick to resharpen and polish your knives. As with anything the time practicing is well worth it. Art gave an excellent tip with the marker and magnification because then you can explicitly see what is going on with the edge.

Regards,

Ben

[hidepounder]

Art, I must have been typing when you posted. I think you are spot on about choosing makers. I know I do that.... I think a lot of us do. It's not critical to understand everything about the characteristics of steel....especially when I can purchase from a maker that I have confidence in. Your example of using a matchbook to get an idea of what 15 degrees is, and that 15 degrees is a good angle to shoot for is exactly what I wanted someone to tell us. I'd like to know more about what you all use to sharpen with too. And just what is a cork belt? Is that something that we should have?

Bobby