Question Regarding Round Knife

[hidepounder]

Sharpening cheap kitchen knifes is a great way to learn the skill of sharpening on a slack belt system.

Regards,

Ben

Ben....what speed and what grit are you using with a slack belt? And how much deflection in the belt is most desirable?

[gtwister09]

Bob,

Ideally you want something slow but you can compensate for the "fixed" speed when you use a 1X30 belt sander (which is a WHOLE lot cheaper than a KMG or clone - these allow slower speeds). The grit also depends upon how much material you need to remove or if the edge of the blade needs to be reprofiled. After the initial profile with the slack belt you don't have to progress through all the grits before you polish it with the rogue and leather belt. Likewise there are individuals who use a mousepad or doubled Scotchbrite pads to aid them in hand sharpening a Moran edge.

The cork belt is another belt than can be used to sharpen with and loaded with compounds (your choice).

I have sent you something offline.

Regards,

Ben

[Knipper]

test

Edited June 20, 2011 by Knipper

[Knipper]

I happened to think about what has been said about the edge angles on head knives for resharpening. Its important to remember that when you hone one side to a 15 degree angle and then turn it over and hone the other side to a 15 degree angle, you are getting a combined angle on the edge of 30 degrees. Many know this, I'm sure, but without bringing it up, some may think that setting your blade at 15 degrees for both sides will yield 15 degrees at the edge too. If you want an included angle of say 20 degrees, then you have to hone both sides at 10 degrees, measured from the edge to the back of the blade on each side, of course....

Also, assuming we are talking about a convex (Moran) edge here, I was thinking that it would really be hard to measure an actual angle on a tapered convex edge, as the rounded taper itself thwarts any effort to do so accurately...at least with my measuring devices.

The main body of the blade and its taper towards the edge, gets to be a pretty small angle when you think about it. Assuming you start with a thickness of 1/16 inch, and then taper it toward the edge over a length of say, 2 1/2 to 3 inches, that initial taper (not the tapered, rounded angle of the actual edge...!) will probably be only 3 to 5 degrees...maybe even less. I think how its sharpened after that (from the edge back to 3/8" to 1/2" into the blade) is what will make the difference in how well a blade cuts. Just my opinion !

Edited June 20, 2011 by Knipper

[Art]

Hi Bobby,

15 Degrees is a good angle to shoot for and 22 is ok for utility type knives like some hunting knives. When I say 15 degrees, I mean 15 degrees on each side of the edge, that's thirty degrees, but if I said that then someone would mistake it for 30 degrees on a side, which is good for an ax not a head knife. A matchbook is a more understandable wedge to indicate the angle of a side, and you can put it down on a stone and visualize it. Darned hard to find a matchbook anymore with all the anti-smoking laws, but they are out there.

The cork belt is something used by knifemakers and at one time was only made in 2x72 belts. Now with the little small sanders they seem to make belts in every configuration. So a warning about the cork belt. To the novice, a cork belt looks like it would make a really good strop, and it will if you don't put anything on it, the minute you put anything on it, it becomes an abrasive belt and will remove metal. Just so everyone knows.

With a cork or leather belt, take it off the machine when not using it, they wear out just sitting under tension

Also, you gents with these small narrow belt sanders, don't hang around too long in one spot, the narrow belt will cut a groove faster than a wide belt, practice with your sander/grinder before you put good metal on it. For practice, there are always crap knives in the kitchen, but you can also pick up shoe knives at auctions by the boxful for next to nothing, they usually are by United and have green handles, these are a few bucks new to give you an idea of the value.

Last but not least, you can ruin a lot of steel with power tools, but you still basically need to have stones for some things and if you buy four large (as you can afford) stones, soft, medium to hard, hard, and maybe ceramic or clay, you can sharpen almost anything.

Art

Art, I must have been typing when you posted. I think you are spot on about choosing makers. I know I do that.... I think a lot of us do. It's not critical to understand everything about the characteristics of steel....especially when I can purchase from a maker that I have confidence in. Your example of using a matchbook to get an idea of what 15 degrees is, and that 15 degrees is a good angle to shoot for is exactly what I wanted someone to tell us. I'd like to know more about what you all use to sharpen with too. And just what is a cork belt? Is that something that we should have?

Bobby

[gtwister09]

Art has given many gotchas of the small slack belt system. However all of his tips and so forth are covered in detail in the link that Bruce provided. They cover all the things including removal of the cork and leather belts since they will stretch. It made over a 40 page PDF file when it was captured to give you an idea of the length of the read. Some of it's redundant but there are tips, tricks, gotchas (like burning the metal up), diagrams, angle usage, equipment selection and explanations. Consider reading it before you start using the system. It likewise tells you to try it out on less than ideal knives. It's pretty comprehensive in it's discussion.

Regards,

Ben

Edited June 20, 2011 by gtwister09

[Kevin]

I've been waiting for this for twelve years. From my dear, dear friend Master Saddler Eva Vettenberg. Notice asymetric shape, head knife on one side, round knife on the other.

Kevin

Edited June 20, 2011 by Kevin

[Knipper]

WOW!!! A Henckel head knife! I didn't even know they made one. The logo is their early "Twin" logo. That baby is old. I shave with a Henckel straight razor (have for 44 years) and I own my Great Grandfather's Henckel razor, which is still in using condition and gives great shaves. Hang on to that knife, I suspect it is quite rare. It was probably made in the late 1800's in Solingen Germany. I know that Henckel has always produced superior cutlery, even their very old work. You've got good steel for sure in that knife...

Terry Knipschield

Edited June 21, 2011 by Knipper

[Kevin]

Of course, it was found in a junk shop, covered in rust, in the bottom of a box of junk (in Hungary I assume). The dealer gave it to the person that found it, they gave it to Eva, and now she has given it to me. She considers my house to be a museum.

Kevin

[gtwister09]

Terry/Kevin,

Asymmetric shaped head knives are generally classified as a French head knife but all the old catalogs that I have seen show a more pronounced asymmetric difference. However I have never seen it listed in a Henckel catalog either. What a find in a junk shop!

I have only seen two other head knives from them. This makes the third one. Extremely rare and as Terry said some good steel. In fact the two I have seen were shown to me by a saddlemaker who I was talking with who is in his mid 80's. He pulled out some things to show me from under his bench and he said I bet you have NEVER seen one of these babies much less two of them. Well he was correct. I also said WOW!!! I hadn't seen a head knife from Henckels ever. Only things that I had seen with the twin logo were some straight razors and a set of kitchen knives that my great grandparents had.

I was wondering if leather workers overseas in Europe may have seen more of them over there. I am just curious if any of them may weigh in on seeing any of them.

Regards,

Ben

Edited June 21, 2011 by gtwister09

[oldtimer]

I've been waiting for this for twelve years. From my dear, dear friend Master Saddler Eva Vettenberg. Notice asymetric shape, head knife on one side, round knife on the other.

Kevin

That is the logo of Zwilling knife factory, J A Henkels, Germany. http://www.zwilling.com/

I once saw one of their roundknifes in a military museum collection of saddlers tools, sent an Email to the factory, asking if they still had roundknives for sale. They responded: NO, we don´t make them anymore since 1944, when the Americans bombed the factory.

/ Knut

Edited June 21, 2011 by oldtimer

[Knipper]

Well, if they didn't want us to bomb their factory, they shouldn't have tried to take over the world...! Heh, only mention that as it sounded like they were a little short in their response to you. During the war years, I very much doubt that even the Henckel factory was allowed to make their normal fare. They were probably forced to convert output to further the war effort. I can't see that a head knife attached to the end of a rifle is a good substitute for a bayonet.

Terry

I once saw one of their roundknifes in a military museum collection of saddlers tools, sent an Email to the factory, asking if they still had roundknives for sale. They responded: NO, we don´t make them anymore since 1944, when the Americans bombed the factory.

/ Knut

[Knipper]

Well, I have an answer for you on the Tandy/Stohlmann damascus knife steel. Tandy recently put these on sale for half price and listed the steel used: SUS410. This is a variation of 410 stainless steel and according to what I found for the chemistry of the steel, it contains .08 to .15 % carbon. That ain't much, when you want steel to have around a full 1% !! I don't know what other steel they're using to get the damascus effect, but none is listed. Could be the blade is just etched to get a damascus 'looking' steel, and it might be all SUS 410. The applications listed nuts, bolts, tubing, lining etc, but nowhere did it recommend this grade for cutlery. Heat treating this steel will only get you marginal hardness, and it certainly won't hold up for edge retention. This is what I was talking about folks...someone will buy this, find out it won't hold an edge and then swear off ALL stainless. Too bad, really. So, do some research before you buy. Shoot for 1% carbon whichever type you use and you won't have a paperweight that looks like a knife, (provided there is good heat treatment...).

Terry

[JWGlover]

Well, I have an answer for you on the Tandy/Stohlmann damascus knife steel. Tandy recently put these on sale for half price and listed the steel used: SUS410. This is a variation of 410 stainless steel and according to what I found for the chemistry of the steel, it contains .08 to .15 % carbon. That ain't much, when you want steel to have around a full 1% !! I don't know what other steel they're using to get the damascus effect, but none is listed. Could be the blade is just etched to get a damascus 'looking' steel, and it might be all SUS 410. The applications listed nuts, bolts, tubing, lining etc, but nowhere did it recommend this grade for cutlery. Heat treating this steel will only get you marginal hardness, and it certainly won't hold up for edge retention. This is what I was talking about folks...someone will buy this, find out it won't hold an edge and then swear off ALL stainless. Too bad, really. So, do some research before you buy. Shoot for 1% carbon whichever type you use and you won't have a paperweight that looks like a knife, (provided there is good heat treatment...).

Terry

I actually bought one of these a while back and you're right. It was sharp out of the box it didnt last long. It is also not true damascus it is etched because on a damascus blade you can feel the different layers of steel and on that tandy knife you can't.

[WinterBear]

I am glad I asked the question before buying something I will ultimately be very unhappy with. So, for now, I am setting aside some additional money so I can get something I will be happy with and that I can use for years. I am disappointed about the Tandy knife especially--I was hoping for some modicum of quality, but it sure sounds like that isn't the case.

[hidepounder]

I I am disappointed about the Tandy knife especially--I was hoping for some modicum of quality, but it sure sounds like that isn't the case.

I certainly understand your disappointment with the Tandy knives! I'm with you on that. At the same time it's probably only fair to remember that Tandy is primarily an entry level provider. I'm confident that they just can't produce or carry professional quality tools profitably or they would do it. There just aren't many people walking through their doors who are willing to spend $200 on a head knife. The market for professional quality tools is tiny compared to the entry level and craft market. I think a lot of people think of Tandy as being the place where everyone including the pros go for tools and that just isn't the case. In this instance, everyone is discouraging you because the learning curve on a head knife is so steep and because sharpness is such a critical part of being able to learn to use a head knife. If we were talking about rivet setters, or punches, or shears, etc., you wouldn't have heard so many objections. So I just wanted to defend Tandy a little bit and while I don't use some of their products, I understand why they carry what they do and I am glad they are there.

Just my viewpoint....

Bobby

[Art]

Hi Bobby,

I too am glad that Tandy is there, but a little more attention to quality and a lot less on hype would be appreciated. Osborne makes a knife that is made, as far as I can determine, of 1065, which is a helluva lot better steel in the hardness department than that etched Stholman stuff. I guess they stopped carrying Osborne tools because of the margins that were compromised by other sellers. It is a shame that Al's name is being associated with less than a high quality product. Tandy is however a good entry level place, and a good place to further the craft. I just have problems with serving up a tool that is ultimately a wall hanger. They would provide a better service serving up quality utility knives and blades than a head knife that is going to be a PIA forever.

Art

I certainly understand your disappointment with the Tandy knives! I'm with you on that. At the same time it's probably only fair to remember that Tandy is primarily an entry level provider. I'm confident that they just can't produce or carry professional quality tools profitably or they would do it. There just aren't many people walking through their doors who are willing to spend $200 on a head knife. The market for professional quality tools is tiny compared to the entry level and craft market. I think a lot of people think of Tandy as being the place where everyone including the pros go for tools and that just isn't the case. In this instance, everyone is discouraging you because the learning curve on a head knife is so steep and because sharpness is such a critical part of being able to learn to use a head knife. If we were talking about rivet setters, or punches, or shears, etc., you wouldn't have heard so many objections. So I just wanted to defend Tandy a little bit and while I don't use some of their products, I understand why they carry what they do and I am glad they are there.

Just my viewpoint....

Bobby

[hidepounder]

Hi Bobby,

I too am glad that Tandy is there, but a little more attention to quality and a lot less on hype would be appreciated. Osborne makes a knife that is made, as far as I can determine, of 1065, which is a helluva lot better steel in the hardness department than that etched Stholman stuff. I guess they stopped carrying Osborne tools because of the margins that were compromised by other sellers. It is a shame that Al's name is being associated with less than a high quality product. Tandy is however a good entry level place, and a good place to further the craft. I just have problems with serving up a tool that is ultimately a wall hanger. They would provide a better service serving up quality utility knives and blades than a head knife that is going to be a PIA forever.

Art

I'm with you on every count, Art! I never understood the point of offering a damascus knife that isn't damascus. When they first introduced the the Stohlman line of products I thought they were going to be much higher quality line than they turned out to be. That certainly was a disappointment! I have a friend/student who bought one of the Stohlman head knives and I have to admit I was pleasantly surprised at how sharp it was. The problem of course is that it won't stay sharp! The last time that I recall Tandy carrying a professional grade tool was when they sold the "Extreme Alloy" (Henley) swivel knives. Of course no one bought them because they were too expensive and so they dropped them.

[WinterBear]

Mostly, I am happy with much of what I get from Tandy. I've managed to get some good leather and tools that do what I ask them to so far from them. But I guess I just equated something being called damascus being actual damascus/pattern welded steel, and I seem to have equated Stohlman in my mind with high quality, probably due to the Stolhman books. I guess I just got excited, and was let down when I found out both knives were essentially overhyped. I'm on the way to buying a good Osborne or Gomph, or something in the same class, as soon as I scrape more money together.

[gary jackson]

I`ve always had a G Dixon & sons Head knife very old English steel and damn hard to work, but holds a razor edge very well. Then 2 years ago I literally stumbled upon a rusty old Round knife whilst helping clean a friends shed, I took it home and cleaned it up only to find it was made by T Dixon and sons also made in England, this knife is a cracker it now holds a great edge after a considerable amount of stonework ,as the cutting edge was quite pitted. I use this one for both stripping and cutting and refer to it as Tom, the G Dixon knife I call George and have never had a smoother skiver. I believe that the early Saddlers/ Bootmakers circa 1850- 1920 that came to New Zealand were probably all of English descent and consequently this explains these two. I do also have a stainless Tandy solely for cowboys who pop in to repair their own gear, after they are gone it is a case of stoning out the chipped blade and wiping up the bloodstains. Really enjoyed reading this Thread.

[MMArmoury]

I brought my pre-1906 Osborne round knife into a Tandy store recently to compare it against the managers own modern Osborne. I noticed right away how paper thin the blade of the modern one was and I didn't like the feel of the cut. Mine was much thicker despite being slightly smaller, I noted that when cutting heavy lathers like 9oz veg tan you have to push down as the blade pushes the leather aside but it cuts very clean and smooth. I think it is much like a traditional japanese katana sword with a convex edge that pushes apart what it is cutting through as opposed to a western style blade with a hollow ground edge. Though I still think there is something cheap and lacking in the modern blade.

[Chef niloc]

This seemed like a good place to show off my prized Excalibur of round knives. Bill Burke ABS M.S, forged to shape from 52100. Sheep horn handle and copper and nickel mokume bolsters. I made the sheath from diamondback rattlesnake and horse hide with a dear skin lining.

[labrat7357]

Hi,

This is in reply to the three options listed for buying a round knife.

I have no experience of Stolhman knives but I note that they offer s/steel blades and that for me is a real turn off. The only stainless steel I have ever had that took and held an edge was a pocket knife made by Falkniven out of a laminated stainless with a powdered stainless core. But as sharp as it is I am told they are very prone to chipping as it is not a tough steel.

I have several early Osborne knives with stars or "X" or "XX" stamped on the blade. They are all excellent knives. But I have also seen the quality of other Osbourne hand tools decline in recent years and I do not believe the round knives would be exempt from this drop in quality and finish, so I would not buy a #70 round knife.

I would hunt down a round knife with some age on it, through a reputable seller or through ebay.. Makers to look for would include Osborne , Rose, Gomph, Dixon and Collins. With ebay ask direct questions about the knife as I have bought on the basis of the picture only to find the othe side has been in contact with wet card board and was heavilly pitted. All was not lost as the handle was great and I had a nice blade on another osborne with a split handle and an owners initals scratched into it. The only thing that says it is not original is the use of a 1/8 diameter brass pin to compensate for the different hole positions in blade and handle.

If you end up with somthing you are not happy with you can always relist it as what it is. I have sold a heavily pitted knife that I had rust neutralised the blade on, to a lady who wanted the rustic look as she was going to mount it on a board with some other tools to make a "work bench" diarama and set it into the top of a coffee table she was having made. I was honest with her, she got what she wanted and the knife was not going into the trash. A win all around.

All the best.

Edited February 27, 2012 by labrat7357

[morgans leather]

Ok, a relativity raw novice here, and I'm looking for some good advice. I'm looking at what I want to do, and have determined that one of the things I will need is a round knife/head knife. And which is which, or are the two terms more or less interchangeable?

There are several options in my price range, but it seems to be neck and neck with the Osborn and the Stolhman knives I've listed in the poll above as far as basic reviews and price. So I've come to ask those who are most familiar with these things to help me decide what I should get, or, tell me why I should get neither and get something else!

I'm new to leather making also i have just finished the ruff in of my mag holders before i dye them . I used hobby knives with replaceable blades to do all my cutting.

This method do able but takes a long time and i rather look for other methods like using a round knife. I just ordered a stohlman round knife. yes i am aware of the quality of the blade but its in my budget and im gonna give it a try. I will take it to my buddy who is a blacksmith making knives if it gives me any trouble with the blade he will will make it work right.

[deloid]

This seemed like a good place to show off my prized Excalibur of round knives. Bill Burke ABS M.S, forged to shape from 52100. Sheep horn handle and copper and nickel mokume bolsters. I made the sheath from diamondback rattlesnake and horse hide with a dear skin lining.

I read this thread through once again and i do believe there is an understanding (correct) that most of the older head knives are better than most anything you can buy new...especially that Tandy "damascus". nothing I know of though will beat out this Bill burke 52100 knife. This is made by a pretty special maker and with exceptional steel. Nice!!!