Need Advice on Repair of Coats Cutting Saddle

[kypeep]

I just purchased a used Coats cutting saddle. Overall, the saddle is in very good shape. However, I desperately need some advice on how to repair one thing about it. Please bear with me, this is hard to describe, as I am not a saddlemaker, just a cutting horse rider:-)

The fleece on the underside is still very well attached to its leather (skirt?). However, that leather has come loose from its attachment to the gullet and the "main frame" of the saddle. My question is this: how is the leather that holds the fleece attached to the saddle? Is it sewn to the gullet and the rest of the saddle? Is it glued? I have looked at my other cutting saddle, a Sean Ryon, and I still can't figure it out. I can't see stitch marks on either saddle, that's why the question about whether it was originally glued. That would seem strange to me for these types of handmade saddles, but I honestly know nothing about saddles except from a riding point of view.

If it needs to be sewn, should I send it back to Coats or can most saddle-makers perform this repair fairly easily?

If photos will help show where the problem is, I'll be happy to get them.

Thanks to everyone in advance. Your work is very much appreciated, even by us dummies who just ride and don't know anything about constructing saddles!

[jwwright]

Kypeep...............the fleece lining is glued and sewn to the skirts on the saddle. The skirts are held to the tree in the gullet area by screws on most handmade saddles, nails on most production saddles. The skirts are held to the bars of the tree in a few different ways..........tug straps front and back, or most likely in the case of your Coats saddle, the rigging leathers are extended past the bar tips and sewn down to the skirts. If you could post a couple photos of your problem, we can most likely tell what needs to be done. It sounds like a no problem repair for any competant shop. JW

[kypeep]

Kypeep...............the fleece lining is glued and sewn to the skirts on the saddle. The skirts are held to the tree in the gullet area by screws on most handmade saddles, nails on most production saddles. The skirts are held to the bars of the tree in a few different ways..........tug straps front and back, or most likely in the case of your Coats saddle, the rigging leathers are extended past the bar tips and sewn down to the skirts. If you could post a couple photos of your problem, we can most likely tell what needs to be done. It sounds like a no problem repair for any competant shop. JW

JWWright - Thank you! You answered exactly what I needed to know. That explains the two little loose screws in the gullet area:-), one of which was obviously a replacement and which I ditched already. That may be the only real problem - I'll check the skirt attachment to the bars of the tree and see if it's loose there too. The saddle is the Cletus Hulling cutter, if that helps any - http://www.coatssaddlery.com for photos. I'll post photos later tonight or tomorrow. Thanks again!

[bruce johnson]

Kypeep,

Cletus Hulling, that name is a blast from the past.

Ditto what JW said about most competent repair shops being able to do the fix. Larry Coats has a couple lines of saddles and I am not sure how the skirts are attached. About the only time this is a major thing is if a maker's skirts are sewn up to pocketed bars by machine. I have had two that the stitch line tore out through the skirts - postage stamp style, and this meant new skirts. Most of the time though it is a thread wear problem, the skirts are fine, and resewing is all that's needed. If it is lugs, even easier, pull some new ones through and stick them to the tree with the fastener of choice. It would be worth having a shop go through the saddle and make sure the tree, riggings, and leathers are OK too. Once something starts to wear, you can bet that something else has some wear on it too.

[kypeep]

BJohnson, thanks for those ideas. The saddle is serial #0100799, which I guess means it was made in '99? It's seen some use, but not bad compared to some cutting saddles I've known. I bought it 'cuz, even though I love the Ryon for cutting, it's hard to ride in on a day-to-day basis - the pocket throws me back too far and makes my old back hurt. I like that flat seat on the Coats, and the saddle wasn't spend-y as far as used cutting saddles can go.LOL, yes, Cletus Hulling. Cletus Jr was around our neck of the woods (Southeast) for awhile but then took off for Oklahoma a while back. Do you ride cutters? That's a pretty paint horse on your profile!

I've tried to attach some photos to this, from when I bought the saddle. Don't know if it worked. I'll still have to go home tonight and pull away the front so ya'll can see where the problem is.

saddleunderside.bmp

saddlefront.bmp

saddletop.bmp

saddleunderside.bmp

saddlefront.bmp

saddletop.bmp

Edited June 3, 2008 by kypeep

[bruce johnson]

kypeep,

I got the pictures to open up. If you save them as a jpeg, they should upload and open directly. Someone more computer literate can help with that. I don't know Coats's numbering system, but I would suspect made in 1999 also. Lift the front jockeys and we should be able to tell you more.

I used to cut a little. I worked for Keith Barnett during college. That was special time, he had a non pro customer who was showing Doc's Starlight (mother of the "Starlights") and an old campaigner named Kingstream, that I recall might have come from Cletus originally through Tootie Lyons. Some of the great sires of the modern horses were showing then. I appreciate what I was seeing more now than then.

Thanks for the compliment on my little paint. He was the coolest, guttiest horse I have ever had. I got him as a junior rodeo horse for my son. He had a little too much motor and I started showing him at some club cuttings. The pic is from the Paint World Show when I showed him in the senior open and amateur there. He was a cool rope horse too, he'd pull a dragger out of a well. You always regret selling the one good we are all supposed to have in our lifetime.

[kypeep]

Okay guys, I've gotten home and taken a REALLY close look at the saddle. The only place that the skirt is pulling away is at the gullet. It looks like there are spots for at least 2 screws, maybe more (I'm sure I can pinpoint the number exactly with a little bit more examination). What is standard? 2 or 3 screws? And where would they typically be located along the gullet? One side still has one of its screws, although I'm not sure its the original.

So, the next question is, do I need to take this saddle to a professional to put in the screws or can I buy them and put them in myself? If I can put them in myself, what kind of screws do you recommend? If nails (which I don't think it was), what kind of those would you use? And where do you get the screws or nails?

Finally, how do ya'll recommend cleaning the saddle? I have wiped the dirt off (including using a toothbrush to clean the borders), saddle-soaped it, and put some oil on it, 100% neatsfoot. I don't know if it's been oiled in its lifetime - I think it could easily soak up about another half a gallon, but I'm doing the oiling slowly. I figured this saddle has lasted 9 years, and I would just as soon it last another 29, so I'm trying to take care of it right.

BJson - I understand about the paint. Hard to sell the good ones but also hard to keep because that's what everybody wants!

[bruce johnson]

kypeep,

No rules on what anybody uses under the gullet. Some use nails all the way, others might use screws in the front and the point of the skirt up in the handhole, with nails under the fork. For screws I use #10 SS oval head Phillips wood screws from the local happy hardware man. I use 1-1/2" front and back, and 1" under the fork. On the front and handhole I use finishing washers with them. I use them without washers under the gullet. I predrill them most of the length and use a spike to set the hole. If you drill pretty slow, you can avoid rolling up the wool and sheepskin around the drill bit as much. If you wind up the fake stuff, it will tear and you will say bad words. As far as nails. I have taken out common nails, cement coated nails, box nails, ring shanks, and screw shank deck nails. I haven't seen lathe nails for a while.

As far as cleaning and conditioning, there is a reason that there are a couple hundred things to use. Be sparing with what ever you use. You can over oil easy enough, we all have. Just because it soaks up oil pretty fast doesn't mean it is in need of more. I go more by feel. I quit about when I think I am half way there. By the next day, I am usually glad I quit then.

[kypeep]

BJ - Very helpful information. Doesn't sound like this will be a difficult repair even for a dummy like me. We'll see what we can do at home right now. If it looks to be more difficult than anticipated, I'll hold off and have a professional do it. I suspect it's about a 5-minute repair for someone who knows what they're doing!