Needle Cutting Thread On Backstitch

[George B]

Hey All,

I've been using an Artisan toro-4000 for about 2 years now, haven't had too many problems, just had to learn the machine and make some adjustments.

Maintenance is done at least once a month, cleaning' tightening and oiling. In the last couple of days it has started cutting the thread on backstitches or when I stitch over to lock the thread.

I have had to take out stitching on belts and holsters way too many times due to the thread cutting at the finish.

Changed the needle 3 times, same result. Cleaned, oiled and checked all the settings, still cutting thread.

I use a 794 size 200 needle, 277 thread above and 207 below and have even tried new thread, same results.

What am I missing?

Do I need to adjust my tension differently than I have in the past?

Any advice I can try would be appreciated.

Thanks, George

[Ferg]

Wow! I must be using a lot of oil. I check my machine every time I am ready to do any sewing. Any surface that appears to be the slightest bit dry gets oiled. Machine has a metal pan to catch drips of oil.

I watched a lady sewing chair covers. She started the machine about 1/2" (3 stitches) away from the actual edge of material. She done three reverse stitches from the start then sewed forward over those.

I have been doing that and find that I have less problem with cutting the thread. Larger needles, such as you are using, probably compound the problem.

Are your stitches tight inside the leather layer or layers? If machine is sewing with insufficient tension the thread that was first applied to the needle hole may get caught when you reverse.

You do hold onto the thread that is in the needle when you begin your stitching I assume.

ferg

Hey All,

I've been using an Artisan toro-4000 for about 2 years now, haven't had too many problems, just had to learn the machine and make some adjustments.

Maintenance is done at least once a month, cleaning' tightening and oiling. In the last couple of days it has started cutting the thread on backstitches or when I stitch over to lock the thread.

I have had to take out stitching on belts and holsters way too many times due to the thread cutting at the finish.

Changed the needle 3 times, same result. Cleaned, oiled and checked all the settings, still cutting thread.

I use a 794 size 200 needle, 277 thread above and 207 below and have even tried new thread, same results.

What am I missing?

Do I need to adjust my tension differently than I have in the past?

Any advice I can try would be appreciated.

Thanks, George

Edited July 24, 2011 by 50 years leather

[Art]

Hi George,

Like me, you like to use small needles whenever possible, but your needle is adequate for your thread, but might be a bit small for backstitching. Check your needle and make sure it is in correctly, usually groove on the left, scarf on the right, thread from left to right. If that is ok, then put a new needle in, sometimes there is the smallest burr on the shaft and if the fit is tight, bingo, remember with the small size needle (and hence the thread groove is correspondingly small) threads are really cramped in there. Going to a 230 or 250 might solve your problems.

Art

Hey All,

I've been using an Artisan toro-4000 for about 2 years now, haven't had too many problems, just had to learn the machine and make some adjustments.

Maintenance is done at least once a month, cleaning' tightening and oiling. In the last couple of days it has started cutting the thread on backstitches or when I stitch over to lock the thread.

I have had to take out stitching on belts and holsters way too many times due to the thread cutting at the finish.

Changed the needle 3 times, same result. Cleaned, oiled and checked all the settings, still cutting thread.

I use a 794 size 200 needle, 277 thread above and 207 below and have even tried new thread, same results.

What am I missing?

Do I need to adjust my tension differently than I have in the past?

Any advice I can try would be appreciated.

Thanks, George

[George B]

Wow! I must be using a lot of oil. I check my machine every time I am ready to do any sewing. Any surface that appears to be the slightest bit dry gets oiled. Machine has a metal pan to catch drips of oil.

I watched a lady sewing chair covers. She started the machine about 1/2" (3 stitches) away from the actual edge of material. She done three reverse stitches from the start then sewed forward over those.

I have been doing that and find that I have less problem with cutting the thread. Larger needles, such as you are using, probably compound the problem.

Are your stitches tight inside the leather layer or layers? If machine is sewing with insufficient tension the thread that was first applied to the needle hole may get caught when you reverse.

You do hold onto the thread that is in the needle when you begin your stitching I assume.

ferg

Hello ferg, I oil every night when I'm done and the shop is cleaned up, quick check and blow out the shuttle area. Once a month is the big one.

I didn't have this trouble before, always layed down nice backstitching. Everything is the same on the machine as before.

I'm wondering if the oil in the thread can dry out. I have an oil pot I can try to see if that helps.

Yes, I hold my stitches tight up to about 6 to 10 stitches and when I backstitch or overstitch I check the tightness of the first stitch.

[Wizcrafts]

George;

What thread is being cut when you back-stitch?

1. Top thread
2. Bobbin thread
3. Stitches already in material

Here are some more questions and related mechanical things to check:

1. Are the back-stitches going exactly into the same holes as existing forward stitches?
2. What size stitch length are you using now, where the threads are cutting?
3. Is this a different stitch length than before?
4. Has there been a recent jam in the bobbin case or shuttle? If so, the timing may have changed. Check the timing.
5. Check your timing of the needle in reverse. It the needle is in a much different position in reverse than in forward. With a large stitch length, this can cause the pick-up point to split the top thread loop, instead of going inside it.
6. See if the check spring has sufficient range of motion to keep the top thread slack tight, until the needle fully penetrates the leather, in both forward and reverse mode. Adjust it for more motion if necessary (to reduce slack top thread). Don't go too far down, or the loops won't form in the needle!
7. Is there sufficient top pressure on the presser feet to prevent the material from lifting as the needle begins to ascend? If not, increase the spring pressure.
8. Check the timing of the feed dog, if you are using one. It must move in sync with the needle.
9. After resetting the timing, or not, go over all screws on moving parts to ensure they are as tight as possible.
10. Oil the moving parts again. Try using thread lube, or lubricated thread.

Let us know if any of this helps.

[Bobby hdflame]

George;

What thread is being cut when you back-stitch?

1. Top thread
2. Bobbin thread
3. Stitches already in material

Here are some more questions and related mechanical things to check:

1. Are the back-stitches going exactly into the same holes as existing forward stitches?
2. What size stitch length are you using now, where the threads are cutting?
3. Is this a different stitch length than before?
4. Has there been a recent jam in the bobbin case or shuttle? If so, the timing may have changed. Check the timing.
5. Check your timing of the needle in reverse. It the needle is in a much different position in reverse than in forward. With a large stitch length, this can cause the pick-up point to split the top thread loop, instead of going inside it.
6. See if the check spring has sufficient range of motion to keep the top thread slack tight, until the needle fully penetrates the leather, in both forward and reverse mode. Adjust it for more motion if necessary (to reduce slack top thread). Don't go too far down, or the loops won't form in the needle!
7. Is there sufficient top pressure on the presser feet to prevent the material from lifting as the needle begins to ascend? If not, increase the spring pressure.
8. Check the timing of the feed dog, if you are using one. It must move in sync with the needle.
9. After resetting the timing, or not, go over all screws on moving parts to ensure they are as tight as possible.
10. Oil the moving parts again. Try using thread lube, or lubricated thread.

Let us know if any of this helps.

Wiz,

I have the same problem with my Highlead, but only when using a leather point needle. I figured it was just because it was a sharp point. I see other people using leather machines backstitch with no problems, so I'm wondering if I've got something a little out of time. My back stitching seems to be just a little off center of the hole. How do you check and adjust reverse timing. Maybe that's my problem.

I use a #22 leather point needle with #138 thread and a #24 with #207. Both threads are bonded poly.

I've just started leaving a long tail of thread when I get through with a project and use a hand needle to backstitch about 4 stitches and then tie off with a knot on the bottom. This is just too time consuming. Is there a better way?

Thanks.

[Wizcrafts]

Wiz,

I have the same problem with my Highlead, but only when using a leather point needle. I figured it was just because it was a sharp point. I see other people using leather machines backstitch with no problems, so I'm wondering if I've got something a little out of time. My back stitching seems to be just a little off center of the hole. How do you check and adjust reverse timing. Maybe that's my problem.

I use a #22 leather point needle with #138 thread and a #24 with #207. Both threads are bonded poly.

I've just started leaving a long tail of thread when I get through with a project and use a hand needle to backstitch about 4 stitches and then tie off with a knot on the bottom. This is just too time consuming. Is there a better way?

Thanks.

I don't know about Highlead machines, but Art does. You should ask him if he knows how to adjust the backstitch position. Or, ask the dealer from whom you bought the machine. Alternately, check the manual for details about adjustments.

I backstitch on a Cobra Class 4 at work, using a Schmetz #23 leather S point needle (#138 or #207 thread), and there is no ratting of the previous stitches. It sews perfectly into the holes in reverse.

[Bobby hdflame]

I don't know about Highlead machines, but Art does. You should ask him if he knows how to adjust the backstitch position. Or, ask the dealer from whom you bought the machine. Alternately, check the manual for details about adjustments.

I backstitch on a Cobra Class 4 at work, using a Schmetz #23 leather S point needle (#138 or #207 thread), and there is no ratting of the previous stitches. It sews perfectly into the holes in reverse.

OK, Thanks. I thought maybe from reading your post it was something easy.

That Cobra looks like a nice machine.

[Les No6]

Hi are you using leather point needles? You should be using canvas point if you tie of on the machine. Leather point needles have cutting points like a sharp edged spear and will cut your thread, you can sew leathe rperfectly well with canvas point. Leather point needles are for higher quality items where the thread is tied of by hand.

[Bobby hdflame]

Hi are you using leather point needles? You should be using canvas point if you tie of on the machine. Leather point needles have cutting points like a sharp edged spear and will cut your thread, you can sew leathe rperfectly well with canvas point. Leather point needles are for higher quality items where the thread is tied of by hand.

That's exactly what I'm using. I thought I needed leather point. Seems like I tried some round points with my machine and they didn't sew very well. I'll give them another shot and see how it goes. I'm also thinking that my reverse timing might be a little off on my machine because it doesn't seem to hit the previous holes dead center when I reverse stitch.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Ferg]

LesNo6,

You are giving some tainted information there. Leather point needles are for stitching leather because they cut/pierce the leather so the remainder of the needle and thread can do it's thing. Round point needles are for fabric, canvas, and vinyls etc. If the machine is perfectly timed I would bet the needle will return into exactly the same hole without cutting the thread.

ferg

That's exactly what I'm using. I thought I needed leather point. Seems like I tried some round points with my machine and they didn't sew very well. I'll give them another shot and see how it goes. I'm also thinking that my reverse timing might be a little off on my machine because it doesn't seem to hit the previous holes dead center when I reverse stitch.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Edited August 14, 2011 by 50 years leather

[Bobby hdflame]

LesNo6,

You are giving some tainted information there. Leather point needles are for stitching leather because they cut/pierce the leather so the remainder of the needle and thread can do it's thing. Round point needles are for fabric, canvas, and vinyls etc. If the machine is perfectly timed I would bet the needle will return into exactly the same hole without cutting the thread.

ferg

I know that when I used round point before, I would get skipped stitches and was told that the needle hole was too tight to let the thread form a loop. Since I switched to leather point needles it sews much better except for when I try to backstitch...I cut the thread.

I think it's more of a timing setup issue with my machine.

I'll contact my machine guy.

[Les No6]

Yes tainted only because tying off by hand is the correct practice, leather point needles have a cutting point stitching over existing stitches there's no hole to cut only a hole filled with fabric (thread) a sharp leather point will cut the thread hence the need for canvas point, timing will only reduce the incidence of cutting the thread clean through many times the thread will only be cut part the way through which will result in premature failure. I did come across this many years ago while visiting a factory that produced dog collars and leads they were replacing the aging Singer 45K's with reconditioned Adler 205's with pneumaticmotors and stitch counters auto reverse and foot lift, I had a play with one(pneumatic motor are truly amazing best I've ever come across) and noticed the it had a canvas point needle when I asked about this I was told that the company that supplied the machine said that canvas point must be used on reversing machine's, I knew the company that supplied the machine and questioned them on this fact on my next visit and was told what I say above (obvious really, the term CUTTING point a dead giveaway) and canvas point will sew leather perfectly well have tried it on many different machine's with no problems cant see the Torro being any different you might have to use a larger needle on some make's of machine. Also you shouldn't need to keep tightening anything you may have moved something out of position.

LesNo6,

You are giving some tainted information there. Leather point needles are for stitching leather because they cut/pierce the leather so the remainder of the needle and thread can do it's thing. Round point needles are for fabric, canvas, and vinyls etc. If the machine is perfectly timed I would bet the needle will return into exactly the same hole without cutting the thread.

ferg

[Ferg]

Now, you see you have your method and I have mine. Yours works for you and mine for me. I have tied off the thread and I have glued the tips with super glue. Some folks burn the ends. For you to say that tying off by hand is the correct practice simply is not necessarily true.

I will continue to use the leather needles no matter if I reverse or not. I agree that you can sew leather with a round point IF you use an oversize needle. Personally I don't like a thread hole that I can drive a truck through. Simply like what I get with a leather needle. I am glad you like the round point but don't try to convince me that your way is the best, it just works for you.

ferg

Yes tainted only because tying off by hand is the correct practice, leather point needles have a cutting point stitching over existing stitches there's no hole to cut only a hole filled with fabric (thread) a sharp leather point will cut the thread hence the need for canvas point, timing will only reduce the incidence of cutting the thread clean through many times the thread will only be cut part the way through which will result in premature failure. I did come across this many years ago while visiting a factory that produced dog collars and leads they were replacing the aging Singer 45K's with reconditioned Adler 205's with pneumaticmotors and stitch counters auto reverse and foot lift, I had a play with one(pneumatic motor are truly amazing best I've ever come across) and noticed the it had a canvas point needle when I asked about this I was told that the company that supplied the machine said that canvas point must be used on reversing machine's, I knew the company that supplied the machine and questioned them on this fact on my next visit and was told what I say above (obvious really, the term CUTTING point a dead giveaway) and canvas point will sew leather perfectly well have tried it on many different machine's with no problems cant see the Torro being any different you might have to use a larger needle on some make's of machine. Also you shouldn't need to keep tightening anything you may have moved something out of position.

[Cobra Steve]

Hi George. There are a couple of other things you might want to consider. First, make sure that there are no burrs anywhere, especially the point of the hook. Check the timing as well. Even if the machine sews forward, it doesn't mean that the machine is in time. Make sure that the needle does not touch the center foot, the feed dog, or the point of the hook. Call me if you need me. 1-866-962-9880. Thanks, Steve

[Les No6]

Sorry I'm a third generation harness maker my methods haven't change since the advent of sewing machines, sewing machines use a lock stitch which will run (come undone) if not tied off i.e. stitch back over the thread to lock it off, hand sewing superior to machine will not run and results in a higher quality and much much stronger finish. In fact at one time to tie off on the machine was so unthinkable (let's not mention super glue) that sewing machines for this work didn't include reverse. I don't use round point, No6 needles don't come in that flavour and I'm a craftsman so the extra 5mins to tie off by hand isn't an issue quality is, ask any harness maker, saddler. Not all machines need a heavier needle when using canvas point on leather some don't mind. Fact is fact tying off by hand is best and sewing over existing stitches the needle is passing through a hole filled with material (thread) using a cutting point(leather point) will cut thread the smaller the needle for the gage of thread the tighter the thread is in the hole the more likely the thread will be cut don't know how I can explain any simpler just common sense to me.

[jack523]

I know this does not pertain to the breaking thread issue, but i have had a problem finding a good course for needle supplier. I bought an Alder 204-374 from a policeman in NY, it used to belong to Wiz. I used Campbell Bosworth and they can't get the Schmetz needles 794 system. It will be the middle of next month before my order of #25 needles come in.

Does anyone have different needle suppliers?

[Luke Hatley]

I know this does not pertain to the breaking thread issue, but i have had a problem finding a good course for needle supplier. I bought an Alder 204-374 from a policeman in NY, it used to belong to Wiz. I used Campbell Bosworth and they can't get the Schmetz needles 794 system. It will be the middle of next month before my order of #25 needles come in.

Does anyone have different needle suppliers?

I get the Schmetz needles from Weavers...............

[Leather Guru]

Hello Boys,

I've been sewing for 30 years on all types of machines and I must agree with LES NO6 . If you want your project to be top quality and beautiful & strong , bite the bullet and back sew by hand . After sewing try to hide the threads to the inside of the project or between the seams .

Or , try back stitching manually (not using reverse ) and look to where you place the needle in the previously stitched holes . This only takes slightly more time and you will never mess up your project . So you ask why have reverse ?

The photo is of some work sewn by machine and finished by hand . When you get used to this finishing it goes quick and you won't have to be ashamed by doing shoddy work or undoing your stitching .

[Bobby hdflame]

Hello Boys,

I've been sewing for 30 years on all types of machines and I must agree with LES NO6 . If you want your project to be top quality and beautiful & strong , bite the bullet and back sew by hand . After sewing try to hide the threads to the inside of the project or between the seams .

Or , try back stitching manually (not using reverse ) and look to where you place the needle in the previously stitched holes . This only takes slightly more time and you will never mess up your project . So you ask why have reverse ?

The photo is of some work sewn by machine and finished by hand . When you get used to this finishing it goes quick and you won't have to be ashamed by doing shoddy work or undoing your stitching .

The belt looks nice, but I've never seen or noticed that little single stitch off the sides. Could you explain why you do this?

So far, I've been finishing of by hand because my upholstery machine is just not made for the thickness of leather that I'm asking it to sew. I have a Cobra on order now and will see how it does with using the reverse. If I still need to finish by hand to get the best finish, then that's definitely what I'll do.

I'm glad to see differing opinions on here. I think the conversation is a healthy way for us noobies to learn and try to see what works for us. I'm looking forward to getting my new machine.

[Leather Guru]

The belt looks nice, but I've never seen or noticed that little single stitch off the sides. Could you explain why you do this?

So far, I've been finishing of by hand because my upholstery machine is just not made for the thickness of leather that I'm asking it to sew. I have a Cobra on order now and will see how it does with using the reverse. If I still need to finish by hand to get the best finish, then that's definitely what I'll do.

I'm glad to see differing opinions on here. I think the conversation is a healthy way for us noobies to learn and try to see what works for us. I'm looking forward to getting my new machine.

Hi Bobby,

That point off to the side is called in French , " pointe à cheval " and translates to stitch on horseback . It is often used in bridle making and things horsey . Try sewing a buckle with a strap using that stitch and you'll see why it adds to the strengh (and of course it's pretty ). And bravo for a noobie to have noticed !

I'll tell you I got plenty machines and even though I'm 64, and lazy, I'll always finish by hand and do lots of small things also by hand . Never burn your threads or use super glue

this is only for people who ain't seen the difference . Try to find ingenious was to hide the thread ends . I did and so can you .

Write me any time and I'll try to find some more pics for you .

[George B]

Finally found the problem.

Burr on the inside of the center presser foot after a needle break.

Polished it out and no more cut backstitches.

Thanks everyone for the replies, george

[Bobby hdflame]

Hi Bobby,

That point off to the side is called in French , " pointe à cheval " and translates to stitch on horseback . It is often used in bridle making and things horsey . Try sewing a buckle with a strap using that stitch and you'll see why it adds to the strengh (and of course it's pretty ). And bravo for a noobie to have noticed !

I'll tell you I got plenty machines and even though I'm 64, and lazy, I'll always finish by hand and do lots of small things also by hand . Never burn your threads or use super glue

this is only for people who ain't seen the difference . Try to find ingenious was to hide the thread ends . I did and so can you .

Write me any time and I'll try to find some more pics for you .

Looking at that stitch a little more...is that where you start and stop your stitching or is that done after all of the stitching around the edge?

I looked at your website, you've got a lot of nice work on there.