Hand Stitch Needle Size Questions

[mlapaglia]

Please, I need some help. I am so confused its not funny. I did the search thing but came away more confused. Everything I read about needle sizes is gauge. I would like it in diameter so I can wrap my feeble mind around the concept of needle size.

I use the typical Tandy stitching needle that comes with their kits to saddle stitch. On thick leather its hard to pull through the hole made by an awl.

Which size of needle do I need. Is the Tandy stitching needle larger or smaller than a #000 harnes needle. Bigger or smaller than a #0 needle. Do I want Harness or Glover's needles.

What is a Glover's needle

I mainly do holsters, sheaths and belts. Almost always thick leather. Always hand stitched.

If any one has a caliper and some different needles I would like the diameter of a few needles 0, 5, and 000 harness needles. Millimeters or Decimal reading are fine. If you have a caliper take the measurement just below the eye. The Tandy stitching needle is 0.525 inches or 1.33 mm. Length is not really important.

This will help me get an understanding on relationship of the gauge or needles. I'm a retired engineer and I need all the data I can get to feel comfortable with the needle decisions.

FYI I have a feeling a need a 4 or 5 egg shaped harness needle for what I do, but have no way of knowing if or why its true.

I am probably making this too confusing but its the way my mind works. Scary isnt it?

Thanks everyone

[TwinOaks]

Slow down......breath.....

Okay, hand stitching simplified: The needle size you need will depend on the thread size you use - because of the size of the eye. Now that that is covered, stop buying the big eye needles from Tandy. Go to Walmart's craft section and look for a pack of needles that has 6 or 8 needles in it, two each in four sizes. The whole pack, last time I bought one, was around $2.00. You want the smallest eye you can still get the thread through, so that you stop breaking the eyes. BUT IT"S A SHARP POINT.....yeah, it's a sharp point right up to the time you run a sharpening stone or file across the tip.....then it's a tapered point . When I hand stitch items, I use waxed linen from Hobby Lobby and the two smallest needles in this pack.....I also use them for finishing stitches I make with the BOSS. When I get to the part where I'm back stitching, I use needle nose pliers to get the needle and thread through the hole - short straight pulls, using my thumb on one hand to push the pliers....no big arm movements. You might need to change awl sizes, depending on what you're stitching with, because at a minimum you'll be putting the needle and TWO thread diameters through the hole. On a back stitch, it's a needle and FOUR thread diameters.....which is fine because you're using friction to keep the thread in place.

It's not as complicated as your perceiving it to be...just match the needle to the thread, and use the appropriate sized awl.

[mlapaglia]

Thanks for the info Mike

I'm sure it seems crazy but I am really hoping someone will be able to measure a few harness needles for me. I've been lucky I have never broken an eye on a needle yet. Currently I have some Maine Thread Company 0.030" waxed cord. It has worked well so far.

It would be great to know what size the Tandy large eye needle is equal to in a harness needle.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Michael

[katsass]

FWIW from the grumpy one: A #000 sized harness needle is bigger than a #0 sized one, a #1 sized harness needle is smaller than a #0 sized needle. I use a #1 harness needle on everything (holsters). I use only natural fiber thread (linen), waxed. (No nylon, Dacron rayon etc.) I push my needle through the hole created by my old Osborne1/8' x 1 1/2" awl, grab the projecting needle tip with a pair of small smooth jawed pliers and tug it though. Pull it tight and back toward myself and poke the other needle into the same hole from the opposite side, ensuring that I don't snag the thread from the first needle, pull it through and pull both tight and go on to the next hole. I use 6 SPI. Personally, I feel that if you can tug the thread through by hand, your hole is too damned big. Mike

[mlapaglia]

FWIW from the grumpy one: A #000 sized harness needle is bigger than a #0 sized one, a #1 sized harness needle is smaller than a #0 sized needle. I use a #1 harness needle on everything (holsters). I use only natural fiber thread (linen), waxed. (No nylon, Dacron rayon etc.) I push my needle through the hole created by my old Osborne1/8' x 1 1/2" awl, grab the projecting needle tip with a pair of small smooth jawed pliers and tug it though. Pull it tight and back toward myself and poke the other needle into the same hole from the opposite side, ensuring that I don't snag the thread from the first needle, pull it through and pull both tight and go on to the next hole. I use 6 SPI. Personally, I feel that if you can tug the thread through by hand, your hole is too damned big. Mike

Thanks Mike. I am doing my best to learn the holding the awl at all times while poking holes and stitching. I can normally pull the needle through if I use the other needle as a cross like the stitching book shows. But this is only up to double 6-7 oz leather. Anything thicker than that, like a holster and I have to use a small pair of pliers. I know that the needle I use is too big for what I am doing. I appreciate your information on size relationship of size to the numbers. All I need now is to figure out what the Tandy Blunt needle with an extra large eye is equal to. Once I figure out what size it is I can buy a couple of smaller ones probably a total of 3 different sizes so I can find a size I like.

If you ever get to know me you will find out I am basically a nice person but I get obsessive about details that are no way as important as I make them out to be. At least my wife has learned to live with it and me. It will be 34 years this month. Poor woman is a saint.

Thanks for your help.

[katsass]

Thanks Mike. I am doing my best to learn the holding the awl at all times while poking holes and stitching. I can normally pull the needle through if I use the other needle as a cross like the stitching book shows. But this is only up to double 6-7 oz leather. Anything thicker than that, like a holster and I have to use a small pair of pliers. I know that the needle I use is too big for what I am doing. I appreciate your information on size relationship of size to the numbers. All I need now is to figure out what the Tandy Blunt needle with an extra large eye is equal to. Once I figure out what size it is I can buy a couple of smaller ones probably a total of 3 different sizes so I can find a size I like.

If you ever get to know me you will find out I am basically a nice person but I get obsessive about details that are no way as important as I make them out to be. At least my wife has learned to live with it and me. It will be 34 years this month. Poor woman is a saint.

Thanks for your help.

Well, again FWIW .......... I very seldom use Tandy anymore. In years past (30 - 40 yrs) They were quite good, Then there was a reconstruction of the company of some sort and I found that much of their stuff suffered in quality, They seem to be working to perk up their image and their stock items in the quality area, but in general, I use other outlets. One such is Springfield Leather. Call them, they have an 800 number, (you can find it right here on LC). they can answer all your questions and are easy to deal with. Along with being very knowledgeable, they're good people.

As to learning to live with a grumpy old man, Ma Kat and I were married not too long after I took my first trip to the sun & fun capitol of South East Asia in '63; put up with me for 35 years as a LEO, and now over 7 years retired. Talk about a saint! Mike

[mlapaglia]

Ok I have my answers. I also have some new needles Ill post the diameter of the needles I have now in case someone else wondered.

000 Harness needle is 1.70 mm at its thickest part

0 Harness needle is 1.13mm at its thickest part

Tandy's extra large eye needle is 1.33 mm at the thickest part of the shaft but 1.98 mm the widest part of the eye.

Thanks to those that commented everyone was helpful.

Im going to try the 0 harness needle first.

Michael.

[mlapaglia]

FWIW from the grumpy one: A #000 sized harness needle is bigger than a #0 sized one, a #1 sized harness needle is smaller than a #0 sized needle. I use a #1 harness needle on everything (holsters). I use only natural fiber thread (linen), waxed. (No nylon, Dacron rayon etc.) I push my needle through the hole created by my old Osborne1/8' x 1 1/2" awl, grab the projecting needle tip with a pair of small smooth jawed pliers and tug it though. Pull it tight and back toward myself and poke the other needle into the same hole from the opposite side, ensuring that I don't snag the thread from the first needle, pull it through and pull both tight and go on to the next hole. I use 6 SPI. Personally, I feel that if you can tug the thread through by hand, your hole is too damned big. Mike

Mike,

What size waxed linen thread do you use with your #1 harness needle? I picked up some #000 and #0 needles and have size 1,3,4 on the way. Im trying to figure out which size needle to use with a 136 and 207 size linen thread. I did some research and found out that nylon will deteriorate with prolonged exposure to sunlight (UV) and strrech 26%. I now understand why its a good idea to use linen instead of nylon.

Thanks

Michael.

[katsass]

Mike,

What size waxed linen thread do you use with your #1 harness needle? I picked up some #000 and #0 needles and have size 1,3,4 on the way. Im trying to figure out which size needle to use with a 136 and 207 size linen thread. I did some research and found out that nylon will deteriorate with prolonged exposure to sunlight (UV) and strrech 26%. I now understand why its a good idea to use linen instead of nylon.

Thanks

Michael.

Well......I use either 5 strand (cord) or 7 strand (cord). I don't even know what that comes out to in the numbered stuff. If you scrape the end down a bit so as to taper that end, add a bit of bee's wax to get a point, you can get either of them through the eye of a #1 needle ....even with my old eyes (plus glasses). If you don't have it, you might find that Al Stohlman's book on making holsters would probably do you well . At about $12 bucks its well worth it. I have mine from the 1960's, quite worn, but still refer to it now and then ..... most all holster-makers I know have their own cherished copy. It seems a bit antiquated to those of more tender age than I , BUT, the information is basically priceless. Mike

Edited September 6, 2011 by katsass

[mlapaglia]

Well......I use either 5 strand (cord) or 7 strand (cord). I don't even know what that comes out to in the numbered stuff. If you scrape the end down a bit so as to taper that end, add a bit of bee's wax to get a point, you can get either of them through the eye of a #1 needle ....even with my old eyes (plus glasses). If you don't have it, you might find that Al Stohlman's book on making holsters would probably do you well . At about $12 bucks its well worth it. I have mine from the 1960's, quite worn, but still refer to it now and then ..... most all holster-makers I know have their own cherished copy. It seems a bit antiquated to those of more tender age than I , BUT, the information is basically priceless. Mike

Mike,

That's a good enough answer. I am familiar with tapering the end of the thread. I had to do it last night to get some Tandy 5 cord into the eye of a #0. Al Stohlman's book on the Art of Hand Sewing leather talks about doing that. Right now I have 3 strand and 5 strand but both are nylon. I'm new I'm allowed to make silly errors . Now I know what to get for linen thread and I'm set.

I have the holster book on my list to pickup.

Thanks to you, and TwinOaks for help on this.

Michael

[ELeBlanc]

Responding to an old post. I just bought a vast quantity of size 3/0 harness needles. They are 2.4" (62mm) long. Where do these fit in the sizing 000, 0, 1, 2, 3? Somewhere I read they are heavier than the 3s.

I have these for sale cheap in packets of 25. No other sizes just the 3/0.