Can a draw down strap alter rock in bars?

[RyanCope]

This may be an ignorant question, but would it be possible to permanently alter the rock in a set of bars using the draw down strap to help stretch in a ground seat? I've got two sets of draw down horses which I've built roughly 100 saddles on with out a problem. On both of these the tree sits on two 2"x6" butted together @ roughly a 120 degree angle. So the tree will rock on that flat surface behind the back stirrup slot a few inches. Which is were I place my draw down strap to help take slack out of the ground seat. I usually leave this stap on for a day or so. Reason being that my top ground seat piece is stretched in while the glue/ leather is wet, and the top piece wont stay in place until the glue has dried.

I recently bought a draw down horse from Ron's Tool Company in Montana, which is shaped more like a horses back. The saddle bars will even bridge slightly on most of the trees I use where the draw down strap is placed. Which is the opposite of my other two. And, because of the way its built, you can really crank down on that strap. I recently had a saddle sent back and it turns out the bars had too much rock. This was the first saddle I built on this new stand. So is it a coincidence? Probably. But might help someone from going thru what I just did. Granted, I may be the only one here that puts in a ground seat this way.

Ryan Cope

[kseidel]

Ryan, did you put the returned saddle on the saddle rack and check to see if the tree had more rock than before? I think it would be difficult to permanantly pull more rock in the bars with a drawdown, but I suppose anything is possible. If the tree were wet the bars could be reshaped in this manner. It usually takes a day or two of sweatting the bars on purpose to affect any lasting change.

What kind of tree? and what kind of horse?

Keith

[RyanCope]

When I measured the tree behind the back stirrup slot it was roughly 3/8" closer to the marble block that it was sitting on than all of the other trees with identical measurements (5 other trees). If there is a better way to measure rock, I haven't figured it out yet. The tree was built by Quality Mfg. Semi-Quarter Horse North West bars. It was soring running type quarter horses behind the stirrup slots. They happily took it back and sent me a new tree, so there was probably a few other saddlemakers with the same problem. It just struck me as an odd coincidence, and I thought maybe someone else had had a similar experience. Like you say, it seems like it would be a hard thing to do with a draw down strap.

Ryan Cope

[kseidel]

Sounds like maybe a mistake from the mfgr putting the wrong bars in your tree. Were the rest of the measurements the same as other trees that you have from the same maker?

Keith

[RyanCope]

Keith,

I'm pretty sure that is the case. The bridging on the new stand had me wondering. Three of them were by the same maker.

Ryan Cope

[gtwister09]

Ryan,

Just a suggestion but try a scientific approach and design a similar experiment to determine if that is truly the case.

Measure a tree first and then put the tree with the drawdown strap on it and mimic the test for a day. If you think that the moisture may impact it then place a wet piece of leather in the seat before applying the drawdown strap. Then let it sit for a bit and re-measure to see if it was the culprit. My money would tend towards what Keith said about the wrong bars.

Regards,

Ben

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

would it be possible to permanently alter the rock in a set of bars using the draw down strap to help stretch in a ground seat?

This can be another problem with bars that are designed to be flexible. Their shape can be easily changed by how a maker puts in a groundseat. For a regular wood/rawhide tree as you describe, we would doubt it. If you have a tree with thin rawhide and thin bars and a drawdown stand with a pile of pressure, you may be able to pull the bars down the middle a slight amount but when you release the pressure it will go back to where it was made to be. Depending on the angle of the bars, the shape of the stand and how your strap goes over, would it act to increase the rock as such or just pull the middle of the bars down causing the horn and cantle to get closer together? If the latter, you are really working against the grain of the wood even more so than putting pressure flat against the bars from the outside to the inside. Wood will go back to its original shape unless it is left with weight on it for quite a while (more than a few weeks in our experience) or unless it gets wet and is allowed to dry in the warped shape. You also have rawhide that is stitched in a shape and if it is any thickness at all it will pull the tree back to normal when the drawdown is released. Rawhide really wants to return to its original shape unless it is soaking wet and with any kind of a protective coating at all that won’t happen from putting wet leather on it for a day. The only way we could see it happen would be if you could bend it down and then you could somehow put your groundseat in strongly enough to hold it in that position against the strength of the wood and the rawhide both trying to pull it back. A pretty unlikely scenario all round we figure, and over time if it was left the groundseat would probably work loose enough to let the tree go back to normal. Do you still have the groundseat in the first tree? If so, make a template of the rock as described below, take out the groundseat and see if there is a difference. Then report back, please!

When I measured the tree behind the back stirrup slot it was roughly 3/8" closer to the marble block that it was sitting on than all of the other trees with identical measurements (5 other trees). If there is a better way to measure rock, I haven't figured it out yet.

Different makers, bar types and bar angles will change this measurement. Bar length could even be a factor in making a change. If all your trees are identical from the same maker, then you could compare this way. Different maker with different bar shapes you are probably measuring other variables too. One way you can use to compare rock between trees is to use a flexible curve along the bottom of the bar at a point you determine. Just make sure you use the same point on all the trees. Draw that on cardboard marking things like stirrup slots and bar ends, cut it out and put the bottom against other trees. It is an easy way to make the comparison.