Pueblo/navajo Moccasins Sole

[Suicide]

Hi everybody

Can somebody please give ma any ideas on how do they sew the sole on the Pueblo moccasins?

I tried hard but see no any stitches on it.

Is it kinda tunnel stitch or what?

It is also interesting for me how they preform the sole (I know it should be formed wet as it is seem latigo, but exact process currently unknown for me).

I would very appreciate for any links or might be books / excerpts on that technique.

Please

[Art]

Hard to tell from the picture. Glue is an option instead of sewing. The easiest way is to use the turnshoe type of structure where you sew them inside out then when finished "turn" the shoe rightside out for a nice looking seam. There is also a method where you sew the outsole to the insole right up through the inside of the shoe, this could, of course, be done on the side of the shoe in the same manner. You could use either a chain stitch or a lock stitch to accomplish this. I have a chain stitch machine that was once used for exactly that. Everyone worries about the chain stitch coming apart, but with the right wax those things are in there to stay.

Best talk to one of the true moc makers on here for the answer. Let them eat their bird first.

Art

Hi everybody

Can somebody please give ma any ideas on how do they sew the sole on the Pueblo moccasins?

I tried hard but see no any stitches on it.

Is it kinda tunnel stitch or what?

It is also interesting for me how they preform the sole (I know it should be formed wet as it is seem latigo, but exact process currently unknown for me).

I would very appreciate for any links or might be books / excerpts on that technique.

Please

[Suicide]

Hard to tell from the picture. Glue is an option instead of sewing.

Hi Art,

They aren't glued 100%, most likely your right and they had been sewn wrong side out.

Here I attached another example - it seems like stitch is there, but again, I can't see any threads, just creases on the white sole like it has been stitched.

Another source

They also claimed as sewed not glued.

[steve hansl]

The soles look like they are made of crepe rubber to me,probably preformed soles.

[Suicide]

The soles look like they are made of crepe rubber to me,probably preformed soles.

To me too, but they said this is latigo. And they insist there is no glue used but handsewing only.

Thats kind of mystery for me unless they sew it in the way like I drew on the picture attached.

[gunter]

fellow crafters,

the soles of the navajo mocs or better known as kaibab, normaly and tradinionaly are made from a thick white rawhide. This rawhide is 1 inch to 1 1/2 larger as your foot, when you are makeing a pattern.

I find the best way to make these kaibabsole to make little holes on the upperside of the soles before you make them wet and form them. This is I how made them and will continue to make them.

I also posted a sort of pattern on how to make them somewhere on the forum. So if you putt out a search for navajo moc or kaibab, you should find the way how to make them ;-).

cheers,

Gunter

[Suicide]

WoW, Gunter! You're man!

I have found that.

Thanks!

PS: I dropped message to you.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Suicide

[5Rings]

Don't know if he browses through here, but Will Ghormley sells moccasin patterns and you can down load his tutorial for them here:

http://www.willghorm...in_Tutorial.doc

I've never made moccasins; but WG holster patterns and tutorials for making them are pretty helpful. His work is also pretty neat.

[Suicide]

Somehow got over it with soft double (actually - "triple" ) sole.

Thanks everybody for help and ideas!

[Apache Moccasins]

To me too, but they said this is latigo. And they insist there is no glue used but handsewing only.

Thats kind of mystery for me unless they sew it in the way like I drew on the picture attached.

I think Apache Moccasin Soles are sewn on similar ' to the Navjo ,

Ive added some Pics I think you will find helpfull on how the soles are sewn to the upper. Also I was told by an Apache Man who makes them , that it is Latigo . He also said that he gets sand from the river so that they dry in the correct shape. So whether he puts a plastic bag filled with sand from the river into the wet damp sole of the moccasin , then shapes it into the correct shape n lets it to dry in the sun, i dont know. But i have used latigo ' and it dries into whatever shape you want when it dries.

It is very difficult to get Latigo which is almost 1/4 '' inch thick. The craft stores cant get it anywhere .. and i have never tried buy Latigo as a hide . So dont know if that thicker '' than the pieces of Latigo they sell as moccasin soles I dont know. Hope the pics will help you to sew on the Navajo Soles anyway

Also you will need to remember '' as in the pics .. The upper is sewn to the sole ' with the right side out . Each stitch is pushed through the Latigo sole and you pul '' the upper across the sole ' and keep it quite taught ' firm making sure you tuck in the edge of the upper as you go along. what i would do is make the stitch on the upper a small tiny stitch so it wont be felt on the inside. Then go straight back down again to coincide the upper stitch with the sole , push it through again ,, and so on. Basically as in the pics your just folding the sole over your finger / hand pushing the needle through and picking up the upper as you go along. Thats my idea anyway. have a practise on some scrap latigo and some buckskin and you will see how easy it is , and dont forget to soak ' the Latigo before you start sewing .. it makes the sewing go easier.

Good Luck !

Edited July 27, 2012 by Apache Moccasins

[Apache Moccasins]

To me too, but they said this is latigo. And they insist there is no glue used but handsewing only.

Thats kind of mystery for me unless they sew it in the way like I drew on the picture attached.

Instructions for Drawing out the Pattern for Navajo Moccasins.

scroll down , it gives instructions and also shows sketches in stages .. It seems ' that you draw around your foot .. on this foot drawing you make it about 1 '' inch wider .. so it comes up around the sides of the foot ..

I think ' those Moccasins in your Pix ' the Kaibab Moccasins are made around a ' Last ' a shoe makes carved / molded hard shape of a persons foot ' and then left to dry .. if you look at their website ' look at the shape of the soles , they are all the same shape n too perfect. But they are still very nice. It also says on there , not to wear them in the wet , not to get them wet ... and this is probly the reason why. Remember these moccasins are worn in the southwest of north america , hot and desert country , where it doesnt rain much .

http://www.4directions.org/resources/1003348958-81EDF7F0.1/moccasin.html

[Sylvia]

http://www.4directions.org/resources/1003348958-81EDF7F0.1/moccasin.html

Link doesn't work, Apache.... please try again?

[ChuckBurrows]

I would recommend that you get a copy of "Craft Manual of North American Indian Footwear" http://www.crazycrow.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CCTP&Product_Code=4105-003-042'>http://www.crazycrow.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CCTP&Product_Code=4105-003-042

it has the pattern for both Dine aka Navajo and Apache hard sole style mocs and shows how to stitch them as well as patterns for most other tribal styles.

they also carry white latigo soles that are 1/8-1/4" thick (or glue two of them together to make extra thick) in various sizes that should fit most folks feet. http://www.crazycrow.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?

Will Ghormley's Apache boot pattern also show how to properly sew the sole http://www.willghormley-maker.com/ApacheBootPattern.html

Edited July 27, 2012 by ChuckBurrows

[Apache Moccasins]

http://www.4directions.org/resources/1003348958-81EDF7F0.1/moccasin.html

Link doesn't work, Apache.... please try again?

Very sorry sylvia ' I'll try again. Im a newbie on ere so ' .. haha

Edited July 27, 2012 by Apache Moccasins

[Apache Moccasins]

Link doesn't work, Apache.... please try again?

I tried to do the Link ' for the Navajo Moccasins sylvia .. but its just not working. click on Moccasin (kélchí)

Edited July 27, 2012 by Apache Moccasins

[Apache Moccasins]

Link doesn't work, Apache.... please try again?

Click on this for the Navajo Moccasin Pattern

Moccasin (kélchí)

[Apache Moccasins]

Instructions for Drawing out the Pattern for Navajo Moccasins.

scroll down , it gives instructions and also shows sketches in stages .. It seems ' that you draw around your foot .. on this foot drawing you make it about 1 '' inch wider .. so it comes up around the sides of the foot ..

I think ' those Moccasins in your Pix ' the Kaibab Moccasins are made around a ' Last ' a shoe makes carved / molded hard shape of a persons foot ' and then left to dry .. if you look at their website ' look at the shape of the soles , they are all the same shape n too perfect. But they are still very nice. It also says on there , not to wear them in the wet , not to get them wet ... and this is probly the reason why. Remember these moccasins are worn in the southwest of north america , hot and desert country , where it doesnt rain much .

click on this , Navajo Moccasin Pattern '

Moccasin (kélchí)

Edited July 27, 2012 by Apache Moccasins

[Sylvia]

much better. thanks!

[Jeremy5795]

soo is it a tunnel stitch?

[Good Troy]

On 7/27/2012 at 5:32 AM, Apache Moccasins said:

I think Apache Moccasin Soles are sewn on similar ' to the Navjo ,

Ive added some Pics I think you will find helpfull on how the soles are sewn to the upper. Also I was told by an Apache Man who makes them , that it is Latigo . He also said that he gets sand from the river so that they dry in the correct shape. So whether he puts a plastic bag filled with sand from the river into the wet damp sole of the moccasin , then shapes it into the correct shape n lets it to dry in the sun, i dont know. But i have used latigo ' and it dries into whatever shape you want when it dries.

It is very difficult to get Latigo which is almost 1/4 '' inch thick. The craft stores cant get it anywhere .. and i have never tried buy Latigo as a hide . So dont know if that thicker '' than the pieces of Latigo they sell as moccasin soles I dont know. Hope the pics will help you to sew on the Navajo Soles anyway

Also you will need to remember '' as in the pics .. The upper is sewn to the sole ' with the right side out . Each stitch is pushed through the Latigo sole and you pul '' the upper across the sole ' and keep it quite taught ' firm making sure you tuck in the edge of the upper as you go along. what i would do is make the stitch on the upper a small tiny stitch so it wont be felt on the inside. Then go straight back down again to coincide the upper stitch with the sole , push it through again ,, and so on. Basically as in the pics your just folding the sole over your finger / hand pushing the needle through and picking up the upper as you go along. Thats my idea anyway. have a practise on some scrap latigo and some buckskin and you will see how easy it is , and dont forget to soak ' the Latigo before you start sewing .. it makes the sewing go easier.

Good Luck !

Wished I would have read this last week!  I made a pair of single seamed Apache style mocs this weekend.  I sewed them like I do my Southern Plains hard sole mocs....I make a hole from the inside of the sole to the edge of the sole...you can see the stitch....

Good thing I bought several pieces of the Latigo.  It looks like I'll be making another pair real soon with this hidden stitch!

Thanks for sharing this information!!

[Mocgurlmoccasins]

So are any moccasin makers out there?? Im looking to exchange ideas on moccasin styles.

wherd to find patterns, how to bead, where to get good leather… thanks in advance

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, Mocgurlmoccasins said:

So are any moccasin makers out there?? Im looking to exchange ideas on moccasin styles.

wherd to find patterns, how to bead, where to get good leather… thanks in advance

I have this book, it shows a lot of technique of beadwork on original artifacts.

https://library.si.edu/digital-library/book/beadsbeadworkof00orch