Bowden Or Double C Tree?

[Horsecloud]

Keith, I see you are from Cody Wy. We loved visiting there on vacation and the horse in question is named after that town.

As for the white hairs, they are down from his withers about 3" I would say and they spread out about 3" horizontally. His dry spots are of course in that area as well.

The saddle I have does not slip forwards, backwards or to the left or right. It stays in place.

I have tried different thickness of pads.

I did call directly to Martin saddelry and the person I was talking to let me know without question that there is no such thing as "full" bars. I understand what he was meaning, but, he failed to let me know what it was that I was needing.

I'm assuming I need a wider gullet and different pitch?

I'm still looking into all of my options.

I put out on my saddle club forum that I would love to be able to borrow someone's saddle with full bars, (they knew what I mean cause we're all laymen when it comes to this) and I will be trying out a few saddes that are at least wider in the gullet this weekend.

I'm hoping he just needs help in that area and to be able to find several saddles ready made with "full'' bars. (What am I supposed to call that if not full bars anyway???) Do you all just say the inches?

If the saddles I am borrowing don't do the trick then I will be looking into getting one made off someone here possibly. I still feel the pull from the man who uses the Bowden tree because I'm pretty sure it will be the correct measurement for my horse. But, I'm realizing I have to resist since the tree is questionable.

Thank you.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Horsecloud

[BOB BRENNER]

I agree with Keith. The large saddle companies have developed trees with bars that fit a wide range of horses. Your Martin saddle fits three out of four horses which is about what one would expect for a production saddle. As Keith indicated, your fourth horse could have a conformation that is out of the normal range.

My question is - has the cause of the white hair been determined to be a narrow gullet width or wrong bar angle as you are indicating? If not, then you will be just spinning your wheels trying out saddles, as there other situations that can cause white hairs in that location. One could be that actually you may need bars with a steeper angle and not a flatter angle. For some additional info try Western Saddle Fit at www.saddlemakers.org

If I may make a suggestion; concentrate your efforts in locating a saddle maker you can work with face to face. Trying to diagnose a saddle fit problem and arrive at a solution long distance is fraught additional problems.

As far as trees, go with the tree the saddle maker uses or suggests. Bowden trees are in thousands of saddles. I have seen the same problem in a custom hand made tree. If the saddle maker is doing his or her job those trees would not be used in a saddle.

Good luck.

PS: Where did you hear about Double C Trees? Have not heard of them.

Submitted for you consideration.

Bob

[kseidel]

Keith, I see you are from Cody Wy. We loved visiting there on vacation and the horse in question is named after that town.

As for the white hairs, they are down from his withers about 3" I would say and they spread out about 3" horizontally. His dry spots are of course in that area as well.

The saddle I have does not slip forwards, backwards or to the left or right. It stays in place.

I have tried different thickness of pads.

I did call directly to Martin saddelry and the person I was talking to let me know without question that there is no such thing as "full" bars. I understand what he was meaning, but, he failed to let me know what it was that I was needing.

I'm assuming I need a wider gullet and different pitch?

I'm still looking into all of my options.

I put out on my saddle club forum that I would love to be able to borrow someone's saddle with full bars, (they knew what I mean cause we're all laymen when it comes to this) and I will be trying out a few saddes that are at least wider in the gullet this weekend.

I'm hoping he just needs help in that area and to be able to find several saddles ready made with "full'' bars. (What am I supposed to call that if not full bars anyway???) Do you all just say the inches?

If the saddles I am borrowing don't do the trick then I will be looking into getting one made off someone here possibly. I still feel the pull from the man who uses the Bowden tree because I'm pretty sure it will be the correct measurement for my horse. But, I'm realizing I have to resist since the tree is questionable.

Thank you.

I'm glad you enjoyed Cody. We think it is a pretty special town.

I think you may have misunderstood my post..... I am not trying to help you evaluate and correctly fit your horse, only pointing out that a new saddle may not fit all four of your horses any different than the one you have now. If all of your horses are the same conformation, then a single saddle can fit them all properly. However, if you have three that are same conformation, and one that is different, then one saddle will not fit all four. I can and am willing to help you with evaluation and getting a tree to fit, but that was not the original purpose of my post.

I feel your pain and frustration trying to describe trees. There seems to be more confusion these days than ever in layman terminology regarding tree bars. It was simpler when there were only full and semi quarter horse bars. I fear it may never be "simple" again! HaHa.

Borrowing saddles may not be helpful either, since there is no industry standard and no way to know for certain what tree is in each saddle that you try. Even if you find one that fits all of your horses, no one may know for certain what tree was used in that saddle. The best way to get a proper tree for your situation is to photograph and profile all of your horses, and have that information evaluated by someone knowledgeable in fitting ranges of horses. If your horses are not too different, it is possible to fit them all with one saddle and possibly some variable padding. But that is impossible to guess at without some profiling. (this is not all that difficult)

You do not have to have the highest quality tree to fit a horse well. An inexpensive tree can fit horses the same as the finest handbuilt. The factories have dozens of bar patterns to chose from and they probably have one that will fit your needs. The trick is to figure out which one is right. Do not assume anything in this process. The art of fitting horses is governed by some fundamental rules and breaking those rules, regardless of good intention, will result in an improper fit. Assuming that you need a wider gullet and different pitch is premature without hard facts to back up the diagnosis. The width and pitch may be correct but the shape of the bar pad be wrong.

The correct fit of saddle trees is a hotly debated topic. Many people have theories of what works, but the final proof is how well the saddle actually performs in use. It requires experience to know to fit a bare tree to a standing still horse and know how to compensate for the horses' range of motion. It can be confusing, but it is not rocket science. Don't give up hope. Start with evaluating what is causing your current problem, and go forward from there. We can help you get the correct fit if at all possible.

[Horsecloud]

Thank you all again.

I only need to have this new saddle to fit Cody. I don't want it to try and fit the other ones. My Martin fits them well and I will continue to use that one on the others.

I did have someone come over last night and they put a full bar saddle on him and I could tell the difference right away. It fit way better than my Martin so I don't think I'll have much of a problem finding something as long as I stay with full or wide bars. It'll be a process.

At this point, I'm going with the guy who uses the Bowden tree, but have a lot more questions for him, and if that doesn't work out I'll be taking my horse to a saddle shop that helps you fit your horse with saddles that are both new or used brand names to choose from.

I have to give it to you all, your craft is amazing and I respect what you can do with some wood and leather! Works of art. I wish I could afford to have some of that western history myself.

Thanks for teaching this uneducated person some things along the way.