Al Stohlman Round Knife On Special.

[mlapaglia]

Tandy has this Al Stohlman round knife on sale for members for between 28 and 32 dollars depending on level. Is it worth that price. I do not yet have a round knife and its over 50% off. It seems like a good deal for the price. I just want to make sure its not a waste of money. It's normally retail for $69.99 My price $54.00. Id like one so I hope its worth it. at least for a starter.

Thanks for the input

Michael

Sale ends 1/15/12

[Art]

This Tandy knife is a round knife, not a head knife.

Blade of round knife is usually a circle if extended.

Blade of head knife is a oval if extended.

Stainless steel can be anything with a chromium content over 12%. I would expect carbon over .85% for the production of cutting carbides during quench. For good blade production, I would expect martensitic steel (it should attract a magnet). This is all just technical crap; it should be made of good steel acceptable to the function and should be acceptably hard, i.e. RC-58 or better.

I think they should declare the steel if they have nothing to hide. The problem with mass produced knives is that they make them to a price point, they actually shop for how inexpensive a knife they can have made, that looks good and will cut something. They don't go to the manufacturer and ask how much to make a knife with certain specifications or criteria.

Honestly, I would stick to a box cutter with a sharpened, stropped blade and save up until I could afford something better in an older knife or one of the new hi-tech customs. We've went over and over this and there is advice all over the board.

Good utility knife handle -- Hardware store or Amazon

Irwin Blue Blade Bi-metal utility knife blades -- Amazon

A good strop with micro fine honing compound -- Tutorial in How to forum

The above will cost a little more than that knife from Tandy, but will probably serve pretty well.

Art

Tandy has this Al Stohlman round knife on sale for members for between 28 and 32 dollars depending on level. Is it worth that price. I do not yet have a round knife and its over 50% off. It seems like a good deal for the price. I just want to make sure its not a waste of money. It's normally retail for $69.99 My price $54.00. Id like one so I hope its worth it. at least for a starter.

Thanks for the input

Michael

Sale ends 1/15/12

[mlapaglia]

This Tandy knife is a round knife, not a head knife.

Blade of round knife is usually a circle if extended.

Blade of head knife is a oval if extended.

Stainless steel can be anything with a chromium content over 12%. I would expect carbon over .85% for the production of cutting carbides during quench. For good blade production, I would expect martensitic steel (it should attract a magnet). This is all just technical crap; it should be made of good steel acceptable to the function and should be acceptably hard, i.e. RC-58 or better.

I think they should declare the steel if they have nothing to hide. The problem with mass produced knives is that they make them to a price point, they actually shop for how inexpensive a knife they can have made, that looks good and will cut something. They don't go to the manufacturer and ask how much to make a knife with certain specifications or criteria.

Honestly, I would stick to a box cutter with a sharpened, stropped blade and save up until I could afford something better in an older knife or one of the new hi-tech customs. We've went over and over this and there is advice all over the board.

Good utility knife handle -- Hardware store or Amazon

Irwin Blue Blade Bi-metal utility knife blades -- Amazon

A good strop with micro fine honing compound -- Tutorial in How to forum

The above will cost a little more than that knife from Tandy, but will probably serve pretty well.

Art

Art, Im confused, You said,

"This Tandy knife is a round knife, not a head knife.

Blade if round knife is usually a circle if extended.

Blade of head knife is a oval if extended."

I called it a round knife, the page at Tandy called it a round knife. Did you mean that its actually a head knife and not a round knife?

Ive got a great utility knife that works very well. I figure if its worth it Id get this to play with to see if I like it.

Thanks

Michael

FYI according to Stolhmans Leathercraft tools book this is Head knife. But I have seen them called both all the time.

(the only advantage of buying the tools book as a digital file is for posting examples. I wound up buying the paper version too. )

Edited December 15, 2011 by mlapaglia

[Art]

As well you should be, the knife at the linked Tandy website is a round knife. Then they also go and call it a head knife.

Now the AS book on the page you have posted:

The first knife (on the left) is actually a Head knife, the tips come back to the bolster or ferrule.

The second knife (in the center) is a round knife, note the tips don't come anywhere near the ferrule.

The third knife (on the right) is a head knife and is properly identified.

Sometimes (often) head knives have semi-circular cutouts on the back unsharpened edge, whereas round knives are often straight across on those edges or have a slight angle.

The small knife below the second and third knives has been modified through the sharpening process; I have no idea what it started out as.

The round knife is used for intricate cutting and the head knife for straighter or long curved cuts.

Head knives are generally bigger than round knives, but I have seen quite a few remarkable exceptions to that rule.

Art

Art, Im confused, You said,

"This Tandy knife is a round knife, not a head knife.

Blade if round knife is usually a circle if extended.

Blade of head knife is a oval if extended."

I called it a round knife, the page at Tandy called it a round knife. Did you mean that its actually a head knife and not a round knife?

Ive got a great utility knife that works very well. I figure if its worth it Id get this to play with to see if I like it.

Thanks

Michael

FYI according to Stolhmans Leathercraft tools book this is Head knife. But I have seen them called both all the time.

(the only advantage of buying the tools book as a digital file is for posting examples. I wound up buying the paper version too. )

[King's X]

You might be better off looking at something like this one to invest for a short or medium time period.

Good luck

http://www.ebay.com/itm/C-S-Osborne-Medium-Round-Knife-/290646697094?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43abe4a486#ht_500wt_1203

[Knipper]

I posted this before, but as I recall, the steel they are using is a 410 series stainless. Although this is still magnetic, it contains very little carbon so you can't get it very hard during heat treating. That translates into a blade that will not hold an edge very long and you will be honing it often. If they are using different steel for this particular knife, then I'd have to know what it was before I could comment. I just know that the "SUS410" they use for their Stohlman "damascus" head knives is not intended to be used for cutlery of any kind. If this is a regular carbon steel blade, and not stainless, try to find out if there is at least .75% or better carbon content in the steel. At least that will hold an edge for a while, provided it's heat treated properly.

Knipper

Tandy has this Al Stohlman round knife on sale for members for between 28 and 32 dollars depending on level. Is it worth that price. I do not yet have a round knife and its over 50% off. It seems like a good deal for the price. I just want to make sure its not a waste of money. It's normally retail for $69.99 My price $54.00. Id like one so I hope its worth it. at least for a starter.

Thanks for the input

Michael

Sale ends 1/15/12

[mlapaglia]

I posted this before, but as I recall, the steel they are using is a 410 series stainless. Although this is still magnetic, it contains very little carbon so you can't get it very hard during heat treating. That translates into a blade that will not hold an edge very long and you will be honing it often. If they are using different steel for this particular knife, then I'd have to know what it was before I could comment. I just know that the "SUS410" they use for their Stohlman "damascus" head knives is not intended to be used for cutlery of any kind. If this is a regular carbon steel blade, and not stainless, try to find out if there is at least .75% or better carbon content in the steel. At least that will hold an edge for a while, provided it's heat treated properly.

Knipper

Thanks for the info. I called my tandy and they had no idea what was in it. They are going to try to find out. I just got a call back and all they can tell me is that its Stainless steel. O well It looked like a good deal. Ill keep looking.

Michael

[King's X]

Michael....If you can only make a minimal investment take a look at www.brucejohnsonleather.com and see what he has listed for head knifes.

Good luck

[mlapaglia]

I posted this before, but as I recall, the steel they are using is a 410 series stainless. Although this is still magnetic, it contains very little carbon so you can't get it very hard during heat treating. That translates into a blade that will not hold an edge very long and you will be honing it often. If they are using different steel for this particular knife, then I'd have to know what it was before I could comment. I just know that the "SUS410" they use for their Stohlman "damascus" head knives is not intended to be used for cutlery of any kind. If this is a regular carbon steel blade, and not stainless, try to find out if there is at least .75% or better carbon content in the steel. At least that will hold an edge for a while, provided it's heat treated properly.

Knipper

This is what they sent me. It's the material data sheet for 410. This says its applicably for cutlery. But it doenst say GOOD cutlery.

http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/410.asp

[mlapaglia]

Michael....If you can only make a minimal investment take a look at www.brucejohnsonleather.com and see what he has listed for head knifes.

Good luck

Thanks, At the moment his lowest is $80.00 The wife is buying me a Tippmann Boss Monday, early Christmas present, so thats so much. Ill just keep my eye out for something.

Michael

[azrider]

I bought one of these head knives when they first started carrying them. I used it for a couple of years, but would always grab a utility knife or skife for skiving and long cuts. It had to be sharpened every few weeks, and constantly stroped. A few months ago I got two modern (Harrison) Osborn knives. One was used, and one new. I didn't pay much under retail, but I was OK with that. The steel holds an edge so much better than the Stolman knife. I have only had to touch up the blades with the buffing wheel, but have not had to get the stones out to sharpen it. With these knives, long cuts are easy, and I can actually skive like it shows in the book. That makes things a lot easier. http://www.mainethread.com/cutting_tools.html has both a round or head knife for under $65 bucks. I would just save the money and get an osborn knife to start, instead of the shiny tandy one.

[mlapaglia]

I bought one of these head knives when they first started carrying them. I used it for a couple of years, but would always grab a utility knife or skife for skiving and long cuts. It had to be sharpened every few weeks, and constantly stroped. A few months ago I got two modern (Harrison) Osborn knives. One was used, and one new. I didn't pay much under retail, but I was OK with that. The steel holds an edge so much better than the Stolman knife. I have only had to touch up the blades with the buffing wheel, but have not had to get the stones out to sharpen it. With these knives, long cuts are easy, and I can actually skive like it shows in the book. That makes things a lot easier. http://www.mainethre...ting_tools.html has both a round or head knife for under $65 bucks. I would just save the money and get an osborn knife to start, instead of the shiny tandy one.

Thanks for the link. When it was $69.99 It wasnt worth it but at 32.99 I thought maybe. Seem like it has to drop to $10.00 before I will get one.

Thanks for the input.

Michael

[Knipper]

Well, that's what I thought. I just plain would not buy ANY knife made out of 410...unless it was a butter knife. You know, 440C can't be that much more expensive. Even if it was, they could raise their prices a bit to make up the additional cost, do some decent heat treating and have a product for their customers that would work well. Bill Buchmann used 440C and his knives were VERY good, and prized by most of their owners. I will continue to scratch my head concerning U.S. manufacturers/distributors who deliver poor products regardless of the price. It doesn't have to be that way.

[Knipper]

Mlapaglia...

I'm sure by "cutlery", they mean tableware, not sharp knives used to cut.

Only .15% carbon...tsk tsk.

Knipper

This is what they sent me. It's the material data sheet for 410. This says its applicably for cutlery. But it doenst say GOOD cutlery.

http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/410.asp

Edited December 17, 2011 by Knipper

[mlapaglia]

Well, that's what I thought. I just plain would not buy ANY knife made out of 410...unless it was a butter knife. You know, 440C can't be that much more expensive. Even if it was, they could raise their prices a bit to make up the additional cost, do some decent heat treating and have a product for their customers that would work well. Bill Buchmann used 440C and his knives were VERY good, and prized by most of their owners. I will continue to scratch my head concerning U.S. manufacturers/distributors who deliver poor products regardless of the price. It doesn't have to be that way.

Another issue, I figured a knife with the name "Al Stolhman" on it would be quality. Seems they are really abusing the name for all its worth. I would think that whoever owns the name now would be more careful of the products its put on. O well, What do I know.

Michael

Edited December 17, 2011 by mlapaglia

[oldtimer]

The round knife is used for intricate cutting and the head knife for straighter or long curved cuts.

Head knives are generally bigger than round knives, but I have seen quite a few remarkable exceptions to that rule.

Art

Art, In my world the head knife is used for intricate cutting and the round knife for straighter or long curved cuts ! And my round knives are generally bigger than head knives !

/ Knut

[Art]

Hi Knut,

Yes, I understand I may have my nomenclature backwards, but that is what I was taught by someone I totally respect. I looked at the CSO website and they are also leaning toward your definition. Guess my old master wasn't always correct, too bad I can't call her up and ask her.

Checking the literature and 19th century catalogs, it appears that the terms round and head knives meant entirely different things to different manufacturers, and scholars seem to go out of their way NOT to make a distinction, so in their deference, I will do the same. So from now on, it is the round/head knife.

As to 410 stainless, it has carbon content more in line with structural steel and shouldn't be expected to harden appreciably even if dumped into a tub of cold superquench; there won't be any free carbides, they will all be absorbed. The only respectable property is that it will be easy to sharpen, albeit you'll be doing that pretty often. The primary kitchen use of 410 is in pots and pans.

Bill Buchman used 440C a lot, but he also used a couple of Swedish variants.

D2 is also a popular steel for knives, Dozier uses it a lot.

CSO knives of current production use 1075. This is a higher carbon steel that can, with proper heat treatment be hardened into the upper 50s on the Rockwell C scale. This will make an acceptable knife at a good price point. A company as big and as old as CSO will have metallurgists on staff, or contract firms who do, for engineering services. I am thinking that maybe Tandy didn't do that, they wanted stainless and stainless is stainless, right? Some ask why AS would a allow his name to be on something like this. I don't think he had a whole lot to do with it. Tandy uses AS to maximum benefit. The consumer figures AS on the knives, AS on the books, they are certified by Al. Not so much I think; he passed long ago.

Older CSO knives (turn of the century, 1900-1920 or before) were probably of a higher carbon tool steel, like an O-1 or so, there were few distinctions, tool steel, structural steel, etc., etc. You could (and still can) order tool steels off the shelf, and drop forging was the manufacturing method of choice in those days. If it hasn't been mistreated, you will get a better old knife or new custom knife in this day and age. The new steels from Crucible are absolutely state of the art, and some were designed with custom knives (and semi customs in the last 20 years) in mind. Usually, custom knifemakers are the first with new steel, then the knife manufacturers get on board about 5 to 10 years later. With head/round knives, you are only going to get the good stuff from custom makers, there just isn't the volume for one of the big companies to get on board, for a tactical or pocket knife yes, but for head/round or skiving knives, not so much.

The availability of product in roll form and sheet form (usually from rolls) had heightened the availability of computerized water cutting of the complex steels. This allows the custom maker to go into "semi" production and keep the costs, and price of finished product reasonable. My hat is off to the custom and semi-custom makers that produce knives for the leather/shoe trades and hobbyists. There just isn't real money in it anymore (as the leather and shoe industries are gone) and it is more for love than money that they keep doing it. Unfortunately, there is more to be made on a drop point knife, a "tactical" urban combat knife, or a simple but beautifully executed folder than a head/round knife. As beautiful or ugly as they are (do I mean makers or knives here?), every one of these makers' leather knives are users.

Art

Art, In my world the head knife is used for intricate cutting and the round knife for straighter or long curved cuts ! And my round knives are generally bigger than head knives !

/ Knut

[oldtimer]

Here is a pic of a head knife (left) and a round knife ( right) and there is a significant difference in shape.

I found the head knife in a flea market: It was a 6" Blanchard round knife with a 1 1/2" crack into the blade,and the handle and brass ferrule was smashed so I made it into a rescue project. Cut off the cracked metal with a grinder, glued the handle pieces together, threw the ruined brass ferrule into the metal recirculation. I cut off the damaged parts of the handle and glued it to the blade and the ruined Blanchard round knife started a new life in my shop as a Blanchard head knife. It is one of my favorite knives for tight corners and intricate cuts!

The round knife is an old H.Gomph, and you can see by its shape that it is more suited for long straight cuts and skiving than the head knife.

/ Knut

Edited December 17, 2011 by oldtimer

[mlapaglia]

One of my kids got me the Tandy Al Stohlman round/head knife for Christmas anyway. I sharpened it, took longer than what I would consider normal. Tried it for 3 days and returned it. I could not get it to keep an edge. It also had a very tinny sound when tapped. Sounded hollow and cheap. When I took it back I told the guy that Al Stolhman would cry if he knew it name was on a piece of carp like this.

I'll wait and get a better one when I can afford it.

Too bad my kids didn't read this thread before they went shopping.

Michael.