Avenger Vs. Pancake: Your Thoughts?

[Kingswarrior]

I wasn't sure where to post this and I could not find a similar thread, although I might have overlooked one. My question is this: Is an Avenger style holster just as concealable as the typical pancake style holsters I see? I guess I should ask if the profile is just as thin as another OWB style? Does the belt loop on the back of the Avenger make that much difference in concealability over a holster with the loops spaced at both ends? I am wanting to learn to make holsters and was curious about design pros/cons for both the Avenger and pancake styles. What has been your experience/preference? Is there a book available that will provide such info? Thanks in advance.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Kingswarrior

[DoubleBarP]

I wasn't sure where to post this and I could not find a similar thread, although I might have overlooked one. My question is this: Is an Avenger style holster just as concealable as the typical pancake style holsters I see? I guess I should ask if the profile is just as thin as another OWB style? Does the belt loop on the back of the Avenger make that much difference in concealability over a holster with the loops spaced at both ends? I am wanting to learn to make holsters and was curious about design pros/cons for both the Avenger and pancake styles. What has been your experience/preference? Is there a book available that will provide such info? Thanks in advance.

While I usually lurk on this forum I read your post and though I would offer the following:

The age old question is: What is the"best" type of holster to buy. I just retired after 36 years in law enforcement and have been lookingfor that answer for a long time. I have several "boxes" of holsters as I have tried to address every type of concealmentneed.

The answer is: It depends. The first thing I would caution against is, disregard what you may have read in themagazine articles. Or what some trainer may have said about the "best" holsteror what you may need. The questions to ask are somewhat more complex to get to a holster that may work for you.

Body type: Small frame, large frame, tall, short, thickor thin waist. Any physical limitationsin terms of flexibility (I have a shoulder issue as an example).<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;"><br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">Style of dress / Climate: I look for a holster that is relativelycomfortable, then choose the clothing that will conceal the firearm. In other words how will you be dressed andwhat is the climate. As an example Ineed to buy pants and belt at least 2 inches larger if I wearing a IWBholster. Jeans 1.75 " belt, dockers, 1"belt.

Duration and physical activities: think about what your daily activity is,standing, sitting, crawling, stooping, reaching, jumping, and running. You holster need to retain your firearm whileengaged in vigorous physical activity such as running away or towards somethingsuch as a threat or cover. Almost forgot,how long will you be carrying the firearm 8, 10, 12 hours. Side note:Carrying a 1911A1 will two mags, handcuffs, badge, OC and baton while in civilianclothing around all day can become physically taxing.

Concealment: Where or what will you be doing and howcritical is that your handgun remain concealed. Do you need to stay concealed so no one around you knows your arecarrying or is it a casual concealment environment such as off duty lawenforcement. Is printing an issue, ifyou reach for an item and your firearm is exposed will that create aproblem. As you sit down will yourholster and belt creak, or make a sound when the butt of your handgun hits theplastic seat at Mc "D's". If someonebumps into you in a crowd will they impact your firearm?

Handgun: How big is the handgun you want tocarry? There are trade off's witheach. What does the gun weigh? 1911 vs KetTec 9mm, there is a worldapart, thick Glock or Smith & Wessonor wheel gun with 2 inch cylinder. Any sharpedges or angles that will become a problem in concealment design. An FN 5.7 as opposed to a S&W J framechiefs special it makes a difference.

Insummary: Holster selection / Designis based on several criteria. In myexperience this includes:

· A combination of speed, safety, durability,and a key component for concealed carry, concealability. Also retention while engaged in vigorousactivity.

· There are some safety areas that cannot becompromised – Covered Trigger.

As I said "it depends" and it only my opinion and you everyone hasone of those…

Regards

Edited January 28, 2012 by DoubleBarP

[katsass]

While I usually lurk on this forum I read your post and though I would offer the following:

The age old question is: What is the"best" type of holster to buy. I just retired after 36 years in law enforcement and have been lookingfor that answer for a long time. I have several "boxes" of holsters as I have tried to address every type of concealmentneed.

The answer is: It depends. The first thing I would caution against is, disregard what you may have read in themagazine articles. Or what some trainer may have said about the "best" holsteror what you may need. The questions to ask are somewhat more complex to get to a holster that may work for you.

Body type: Small frame, large frame, tall, short, thickor thin waist. Any physical limitationsin terms of flexibility (I have a shoulder issue as an example).<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;"><br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">Style of dress / Climate: I look for a holster that is relativelycomfortable, then choose the clothing that will conceal the firearm. In other words how will you be dressed andwhat is the climate. As an example Ineed to buy pants and belt at least 2 inches larger if I wearing a IWBholster. Jeans 1.75 " belt, dockers, 1"belt.

Duration and physical activities: think about what your daily activity is,standing, sitting, crawling, stooping, reaching, jumping, and running. You holster need to retain your firearm whileengaged in vigorous physical activity such as running away or towards somethingsuch as a threat or cover. Almost forgot,how long will you be carrying the firearm 8, 10, 12 hours. Side note:Carrying a 1911A1 will two mags, handcuffs, badge, OC and baton while in civilianclothing around all day can become physically taxing.

Concealment: Where or what will you be doing and howcritical is that your handgun remain concealed. Do you need to stay concealed so no one around you knows your arecarrying or is it a casual concealment environment such as off duty lawenforcement. Is printing an issue, ifyou reach for an item and your firearm is exposed will that create aproblem. As you sit down will yourholster and belt creak, or make a sound when the butt of your handgun hits theplastic seat at Mc "D's". If someonebumps into you in a crowd will they impact your firearm?

Handgun: How big is the handgun you want tocarry? There are trade off's witheach. What does the gun weigh? 1911 vs KetTec 9mm, there is a worldapart, thick Glock or Smith & Wessonor wheel gun with 2 inch cylinder. Any sharpedges or angles that will become a problem in concealment design. An FN 5.7 as opposed to a S&W J framechiefs special it makes a difference.

Insummary: Holster selection / Designis based on several criteria. In myexperience this includes:

· A combination of speed, safety, durability,and a key component for concealed carry, concealability. Also retention while engaged in vigorousactivity.

· There are some safety areas that cannot becompromised – Covered Trigger.

As I said "it depends" and it only my opinion and you everyone hasone of those…

Regards

Kingswarior; BoubleBarP has it down to a 'T'. I spent 35 years in law enforcement myself, 15 of that was as a 'Range-master/Armorer (as one of those 'other duties as assigned') and one of the most difficult ideas to get across to the troops is that "you dress to conceal". I live and worked primarily in a desert area, and got a lot of 'discussion' about the ability to conceal a handgun in a pair of shorts and a tank-top. One other item; when one carries a concealed weapon, many times the way he carries HIMSELF gives him away. Remember that the true 'bag guys' have had a lot of experience at observation --- for both victims, and a plain clothes LEO. JMHO Mike

[cdf]

Pancakes take up a lot of belt realestate , tho they conceal quite well . I never found them comfortable . I'm more of an IWB guy , loved the Sparks summer special . Of the two I would take the avenger .

Just me but my fave position is "appendix carry " . Failing that just above the main trouser seam , just like a duty holster . Just get yourself a baggier cover garment . Behind the hip is great for concealment , but very hard to reach in a vehicle , especially with a seatbelt on . Ditto if you are on your butt , or pushed against a wall .

Chris

[Kingswarrior]

Thanks for the info fellas. DoubleBarP, I'm finding some of these things out in my own experience as a person new to concealed carry. Thanks for your informative reply. katsass, I've been lurking here for several months now and I always enjoy reading your responses to various posts. The benefit of experience is something that can only be appreciated in one of two ways: by doing it yourself, or learning from those who have. cdf, thanks for the info. I will examine and try those methods of carry myself. Hope to have some work to post for your critiques soon.

[cdf]

One option I would strongly consider would be a J frame S&W , either a .38 or a .357 Air Lite Pocket Rocket , ( not fun to shoot -but will do a number ) , and get hold of a good pocket holster . Revolvers have their place , lots of peeps aren't aware that in a contact shot situation- ( muzzel against target ) a semi can go out of battery .

Most civilian shoot em ups are between 3 and 7' , reloads don't usually factor .

Just a thought . respectfully submitted , don't want to start a wheel gun vs semi flame war .

Chris

[katsass]

One option I would strongly consider would be a J frame S&W , either a .38 or a .357 Air Lite Pocket Rocket , ( not fun to shoot -but will do a number ) , and get hold of a good pocket holster . Revolvers have their place , lots of peeps aren't aware that in a contact shot situation- ( muzzel against target ) a semi can go out of battery .

Most civilian shoot em ups are between 3 and 7' , reloads don't usually factor .

Just a thought . respectfully submitted , don't want to start a wheel gun vs semi flame war .

Chris

FWIW from the old grump; cdf has it right. Off duty carry and/or permitted CCW carriers must remember that you aren't going to get into a protracted knock down shoot-um-up gunfight --- unless you are a damned fool. That shooter is there to get you out of a deadly situation in which there is no other way out. And remember, 21 feet from you is not a long distance. A man good with a toad sticker, and intent on doing you harm can get that thing between your ribs usually before you can react and complete your draw. JMHO. Mike

[STERLING]

FWIW from the old grump; cdf has it right. Off duty carry and/or permitted CCW carriers must remember that you aren't going to get into a protracted knock down shoot-um-up gunfight --- unless you are a damned fool. That shooter is there to get you out of a deadly situation in which there is no other way out. And remember, 21 feet from you is not a long distance. A man good with a toad sticker, and intent on doing you harm can get that thing between your ribs usually before you can react and complete your draw. JMHO. Mike

hell i agree with all ,really become personall preference ,have carried both out side and inside ,under the arm and so on ,but really it is the costumer or your comfort carry zone ,