1St Seat And Some Finishing Questions

[Miloradovich]

Hello, This is my first post here but I have been lurking quite a bit and have found this to be a great resource to help me get started and learn about leather work.

I am almost finished with the tooling work for my first attempt at a seat and have been thinking about the next steps and the finishing process.

Here is a photo of where I am so far

I would like to do some selective dyeing with a brush, was thinking black in the dead spots (eye sockets and the whole in the jaw) and probably a medium brown tone in the flowers and leaves for contrast while keeping a lot of the leather the natural color. I would also like to use an antiqueing paste to highlight the tooled lines which brings me to my question. What steps should I take for dyeing and antiqueing specifically for a seat? I know a lot of people have a lot of different methods but from what I understand the typicall steps are

oil, stain, oil, dye, some kind of sealer as a resist for the antique, antique, second coat of sealer and then condition as the last step.

I have been told however that sealers will crack on leather that flexes on a seat application, but that also antiqueing without a sealer will look blotchy and turn out poorly. I'd like to know what steps others on here take for good looking finished product that'll last but not crack in a few months.

Also I was originally planning on using a backgrounder over all the empty space but now seeing it this far I'm thinking it might make it look to busy. If anyone has any opinions one way or the other I'd love to hear them.

Thanks in advance for the help, this is the second item I have tooled and while I am enjoying it I have a lot to learn about all the specifics.

Milo

[chancey77]

Hey Milo!

Dude that seat is looking pretty SICK!!!!!!!!!!

I give a lot of advise to people about finishing seats.

1.My suggestions about the art work would be to use a Backgrounder M 885 from Tandy all around the border of where you have beveled around the flowers and Chica. It gives a real nice even border which is very pro. Right now it looks like you used a angled beveler insted of one you pull they look just like the swivel knife, but have a hard plastic end instead of a blade and they are rounded tips at 45degree angle so they cut in real nice. I use that tool just as much as my knife.

2. Try using the same M885 to fill in the eyes and some random places in the flowers.

3. You can use the backgrounder to fill in the empty spot but it seems like there may need to be just a 1/2 flower and some more leaves over the Chica.

4. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT LESSON!

When you fill in with the backgrounder rotate the backgrounder in your fingers and tap lightly at a very even tempo, put on some music that has a good tempo like maybe the Ramones:) and tap to the beat and get into a rhythm!

Rotating the backgrounder with fill in the unevenness of the way the tool wants to naturally mark the leather you are turning to use it like a blending tool.

If you check the pictures I loaded you can see the 3 tools I used to make the Captain Spaulding seat. Swivel Knife, Swivel Beveler and M885 Backgrounder.

And Double Loop Stitch on the Pistonhead Beer Seat.

For Finishing Motorcycle seats.

STAY AWAY FROM CLEAR GLOSS SEALERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Use a brush to set in the dye! I use about 3-4 different ones.

You do not need antique!

Though it makes it a lot faster, if you are not clearing/lac the leather it will discolor and all that work will be ruined!

Take you time and using a small brush fill in the lines you think should be black.

Black and Tan are AWESOME!!!!!!!

Neatsfoot oil about 10 light coats let it soak in and wipe away access then use either Pine Pitch Blend, or a Good Quality Leather Balsam.

THEN THE NEXT DAY ...

Start putting real light coats of Leather Balsam that is bee's wax based. Between coats use a hair dryer and melt it in and then Buff with a very soft rag like an old shirt.

Do this about 5-10 times.

Your seat will be VERY WELL SEALED!

DO NOT PUT ON CLEAR OR LAC!

IT WILL LOOK CHEAP AND UN-NATURAL, AND BEING IN THE ELEMENTS WILL SPLOTCH AND DO UNREPAIRABLE DAMAGE TO THE SEAT! UT ABOVE ALL WILL LOOK CHEAP!

http://www.carrdayma...d=MQ==&pid=NQ==

My favorite Balsam, but anything with bee's wax and lanolin will be great.

http://www.mtpitchbl...alproducts.html

The best oil on the market!

On average I spend 60% or more on my seats just brushing in what needs to be brushed in. It should take between 60-100 hrs to have the seat ready. The Carving goes fast but the finishing and attention to details take a lot of stepping back and trying not to over do it.

YOUR SEAT IS BEAUTIFUL! STAND BACK AND TAKE YOUR TIME WITH THE FINISH!

Whoever buys this seat from you if it is not yours, Give them the same Balsam and give them instructions to put on a coat and and buff every time they polish or clean the rest of their bike.

LOOKS AMAZING DUDE KEEP IT UP!

I hope you are using lace to stitch it together and not a Sewing machine:) Over time sewing breaks and repairs look like ass, but Lace can be fixed and made to look good again even with a splice, 60 years from now if the lace breaks someone can still fix it and carry on the appreciation for your eye of detail and time to make it! USE LACE!!!!! DOUBLE LOOP STITCH!

You should be asking between 5-800 bucks for that seat when it is done!!!!!!!!

GOOD LUCK AND SEE YOU ON THE BACK SIDE!

Edited January 31, 2012 by chancey77

[Miloradovich]

Chancey77, thanks a bunch for the compliments and the tips! This is exactly the kind of advice I am after.

You are exactly right, I used an angled beveler (b197) around everything. I had finished most of her face and some of the flower outline with it before a trip to Tandy's where they recommended I try a figure carving beveler so I switched to that for the individual flower petals and the hands. The nearest Tandy's is more than an hour from home each way so it's kind of a PITA when I want to try something new. I am very interested in the other tool, like the swivel knife that you mentioned. I haven't heard of it and am learning as I go. The line work on you Captain Spaulding is great and what I was hoping to accomplish here. Do you have a Tandy part # I could look up for one or even a picture. It seems like I could get a much more even line around everything that I've got with the angled beveler so far.

As for the backgrounder, I don't have that particular one yet but I do have an A114 which looks like it might be somewhat similar but from practicing on a scrap with it I can't stay steady enough to avoid seeing the indivual marks. Thats also why I decided to just flaten out the eye sockets as best I could with a smooth pear shader. I need to try rotating the backgrounders like you mentioned. I did pick up an M882, kinda pebbled looking, which I seems to blend together a lot easier for me. My original plan was to fill all the dead space with it but then I started to think it might look to busy. Are you recommending I just go around the borders to hide the beveler marks but not fill it in completely? That might go a long ways to hide the marks from the beveler that I can't seem to get even enough without overdoing it.

That lacing looks amazing too. Lacing it is definately my plan for this, gonna be another learning experience as I go. I'll have to check if the double loop stich is in the lacing book from Tandy's I picked up. I do tend to prefer the look of lacing to stiching and I don't have a machine so either way would be by hand. I am planning to do black lace against the mostly natural seat with the highlight black and brown staining I mentioned.

And as for the staining sounds like brushing it in is the way I'll go. I have some vinagaroon in the works right now for black but I was wondering since it doesn't come out black, is it gonna be to risky to chance overdoing for the fine line work as opposed to dye? I was concerned about the potential for black dye to rub off on clothes but maybe not with that many coats finishing it off.

Sounds like for the sealing and antiqueing, I was making things more complicated than they need to be. I have some Bee Natural Saddle oil and Montana Pitch blend dressing. I assume these are pretty comparable to the oil and leather balsam that you linked.

I am making this seat at a friends request for a pan he made so I will definately make sure he cares for it properly or I'll take it back!

Thanks again man, I really apriciate the kind words and for sharing your knowledge. I am sure I will have more questions as I go but I already feel better about the next steps without screwing up what I done so far.

Milo

[chancey77]

GOD I WISH I HAD A TANDY WITHIN 5 HRS: FROM MY HOUSE! I have to get it shipped from England...

USE REAL BLACK DYE! It won't rub off on clothes after it is sealer in balsam wax and oil.

Ya you can just use that border tool to level out the un-level angle marks,

Hold you backgrounder at an angle and overlap your tooling. Slide the tool toward you while taping lightly until you have a good consistency and a happy depth, you can always make them deeper and more pronounced but it is best to start out with a very light tap.

If you at this challenge page and scroll down, you will find my entry from this month for an eagles head, I show my Picture Beveler(or what ever it is called:) http://leatherworker...opic=37265&st=0

This page is a cool challenge set up by Mike from Twin Oaks, and by participating and hanging here could learn a lot from the monthly challenges.

It is amazing how much I learn from every job. The last one I did is always the best I have ever done, and I can't wait to learn how to be better the next job I crank out. I have been doing this for a hobby my whole life, but actually feeding my kids and working it everyday for the last 4-5 years finally. I learn something new everyday, and I wish I would have found this forum YEARS AGO! Sometimes I have to make stuff I would never do and make things colors I would NEVER choose, but hey THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT....WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT THEY WANT! IF it looks stupid when it is all done, they know who to blame...THEMSELVES: I take a lot of pictures on ever job I take now for the last 3 years, it is a great way to learn from yourself about what you did that you like.

I could continue to work using only about 5-6 tools. I have LOTS of stamps that where passed down to me, but I have found my favorites and they serve me well.

I made te Vickman Lowrider years ago, and it is very cool still but I wish I would have taken the time to double loop stitch it.

This goes to show, sometimes you may shortchange your friends accidentally and later you will regret it. LEARN THIS FROM ME! Don't repeat the same accident with your friends. It was a choice that he made and I didn't push the double loop on him hard enough. Because it was going on a Lowrider bicycle not a motorcycle I let him talk me into just getting it done faster.... As you can see I like simple X patterns on my seats as well, but it has to work with the Pan and the Lace has to be thick to look right. Like in the 57Panhead seat.

Just a thought; Hey after you take your wing divider and make a 5mm mark around the border for the lace maybe just fill in the blank spots with a creative border above the holes for your lace above Chica's head and at the bottom little section that is blank, maybe that could fill out the emptiness without making it look cluttered????

You have all the right oils!!!! Here is a simple bicycle seat I made for my friend, maybe you can see some colors you like. I always contrast my lace with whatever the most prominent color n the seat is, So if there is a Lot of Black I use natural lace, If there is a lot of Tan then maybe black lace??? Just use what you think is best!

Talk to you soon, don't hesitate to send me an email or call if you have any issues. I am glad to help!

Unlike a lot of folks I reached out to when I decided I wanted to go full time and had questions to other seat makers...who will remain nameless:)::):)::) Even though I should out them...I WON*T! DOUCHE BAGS! hahahahahahaha

My experience with doing things for close friends is this...

If they are going to have their bike in a magazine and as long as they have pics of the seat and who it was made by or if they go to a lot of bike shows and have your name there for who made it, people will ask and start to seek you out for work that is profitable, then awesome, hook him up with a fair price!

Do not short change yourself and time just because it is your first seat!

If someone pays for something they are a hell of a lot more likely to take care of it than if " Oh well I got it for free so F' it"

You will get more work from it, and the right amount of money that is fair market value.

It is hand made! Not from some factory, and there is only 1 in the world so that creates value!

Have some simple cards made and give them to whoever you make stuff for, so they can keep them in their wallet so when people ask they can pass along the info.

That is how I went from just doing it for fun to now I do it every day.

There is videos on Tandy's website that show you how to double loop stitch...it is easy! You need 8x's the diameter of the project to get all the way around:)!!!!!!!!

KEEP IT UP! You are doing GREAT!

Edited February 1, 2012 by chancey77

[chancey77]

1/8 Double Loop Stitch

1/4 for Fat X Pattern's

X Patterns 1cm spacing between holes

Double loop Stitching 5mm spacing between holes. Or use a Thonging Chisel Set Item #3008-00 from Tandy.

If you are double looping or for that matter doing any type of Lacing invest in 3-4 Perma Lok/Screw on Blunted Needles, do not use the ones that just Clip on, they are not good! When you have to push on them they don't cut into your finger and when you have to pull on them they hold real tight on the lace, just give a little cut and the lace end and screw them on! EASY AS PIE!

I just thought of that after the LONG POST:) hahaha

[Santo]

Love that Captain Spaulding design!!

[Miloradovich]

Thanks again for all the help and advice! You don't know how helpfull it is! I should have started asking questions sooner.

I got one of the plastic beveling attachments on order as well as some black dye this morning before work. I may wait to finish the hair out till the order gets here so I can try it out on that. I had a hell of time getting as fine of a line around the fingers bones as I wanted and the swivel beveler should make it way easier.

I like your ideas for the beveling as well. Should keep it simple and tie it together without overdoing it.

The seat on the panhead looks great, I am anxious now to try out some different lacing patterns. I started this seat layout following the pinned how to article by David Theobald at the top of the forum and already have the bottom piece of leather tooled and punched at 3/8 oc around the perimeter and black 1/4 inch lace picked up so I will need to figure out a pattern for this one that will work with that. Thanks for the tips on the needles . I 'll get some of those picked up as well.

Again, thanks for letting me pick your brain, your doing me a great service here!

Milo

[chancey77]

Love that Captain Spaulding design!!

THANKS SANTO!

the floating Tutti Fruity cracks me up still...hahahaha

MILO,

Stand back from it and let it breath like a beautiful French Wine!

You are on track!

Talk to you soon!

Example of THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT;) If it was up to me the set would have been all Natural, but the color does give it that authentic Captain Spaulding Sickness...hahahaha

Can you imagine Capt Spaulding licking your butt every time you sit on your bike...hahaha

Edited February 1, 2012 by chancey77

[Miloradovich]

That is an awsome looking seat but I'd have a hard time sitting on after you put that image in my brain. Hope you didn't tell that to your customer!

It's looks great both ways but I'm with you. I prefer less color myself. I am a little biased though. Its just been within the last couple of years that I've added brown and blue shirts to my normal collection of blacks and greys. I tell me wife it just keeps it easy to coordinate with.

I deal with customers day in and day out here at work and have to bite me tounge at times with 'the customers always right' thing. But you're right, got to give them what they want even if it's a 180 from what you'd do.

[Cyberthrasher]

Can you imagine Capt Spaulding licking your butt every time you sit on your bike...hahaha

Now that image will be stuck in my head every time I watch either of those movies.

Milo, what's the part number on that beveler thing?

Edited February 2, 2012 by Cyberthrasher

[Miloradovich]

I found them on Springfield leather's website. Item #011-43. I couldn't find anything similiar at Tandy's.

[Santo]

Milo-keep us posted on your seat. Gorgeous design. Good thread

[OdinUK]

This thread had been very useful to me too, thanks for taking the time to explain the finishing process and hits with the tooling Chancey77..

Miloradovich, Iook forward to seeing more of your work:)

[chancey77]

This thread had been very useful to me too, thanks for taking the time to explain the finishing process and hits with the tooling Chancey77..

Miloradovich, Iook forward to seeing more of your work:)

No Sweat!

[chancey77]

Whats the latest on the update about this seat...we are all wanting to see some updates.....

[Miloradovich]

Sorry for the lack of updates. The seat pretty much has been on hold for a few. I raise and breed snakes as a hobby and had a reptile expo to get ready for and most of my evenings have been taken up with cage cleanings and feedings. On top of that, I've been slammed at work and my 10 month old has been sick so I have made very little progress.

I did get the hair and background done. I started to just border with the background but wasn't happy with the effect so I did the whole background. At first I was really dissapointed with it and regretting it but when it was all said and done and I stood back for a while I am very pleased with the overall look. I think it makes the figure and flowers really pop.

Here's a shot

Now I am re-thinking dyeing it at all. My wife as well as my friend I am making this for think I should leave it natural. I will still use black lace but even if I don't dye I think it will still fit the bike well. The sheetmetal is all copper colored with black line work on the tank and a black frame.

I plan to rivet back peice of leather to the pan this week and start learning to lace. I have no idea how long to expect that to take but once done I will make the final decisions on wether or not dye. Originally I was wanting to use it to make certain aspects stand out more but the background went a long way towards that already.

Thanks, and I will try to get updates posted sooner! - Milo

[Cyberthrasher]

I love it. I was kind of hoping to see what you did with bordering it, but this works really well too. As for dying it, I think some highlights would really benefit it - something to make the tooling and individual lines in the design really pop.

[Miloradovich]

Thanks! I just couldn't get the bordering to come out even enough when I tried to feather it out away from the tooling. I was afraid I ruined it when I started doing the whole background but it has definately grown on me. I keep going back and forth on the dye. By highlights, are you suggesting just dyeing in the depresions from the tooling and nothing else? That may be a good way to do it, maybe with a medium to dark brown. My first plan was to do the eye sockets and depression around the jaw black and the flowers and leaves brown to make the bone parts stand out lighter but as I mentioned I think the background has brought them out a lot and I may loose the flowers a bit if I do the whole of them any darker. On the plus side to not dyeing, I don't run the risk of screwing up the work thus far or overdoing it since I have no experience dyeing yet.

[Cyberthrasher]

I was thinking something similar to an antique paste - but that Chancey guy will have some great ideas on the actual execution. Picture something like this where the lines are darkened up.

http://www.clubchopper.com/forums/794381-post24.html

I'd also contemplate doing the background a darker color, even if it is just a slightly darker color than natural. If you do it that way, try not to make the eye socket the same color as the background so it doesn't look like it's just a hole going all the way through the head.

[Miloradovich]

Thats not a bad idea. I like that seat. The color is subtle. Chancey recommended brushing dye in the tool marks as opposed to antique paste which seems like a much safer bet in my opinion. I could always start with the dye thinned down to make sure I don't overdo it and then darken it as I think its needed. Maybe practice on some scraps first.

[Cyberthrasher]

Thats not a bad idea. I like that seat. The color is subtle. Chancey recommended brushing dye in the tool marks as opposed to antique paste which seems like a much safer bet in my opinion. I could always start with the dye thinned down to make sure I don't overdo it and then darken it as I think its needed. Maybe practice on some scraps first.

Always practice on some scrap first. I forgot he had mentioned brushing it in. So yeah, do that and see how it comes out. I would get the dye on your brush and then "paint" it onto a paper towel or something to get a lot of it off (dry brushing) so you can feather the amount of dye you're using on the piece. Do it all on a practice piece to determine how much color and what color you'd like - as well as getting the hang of the technique. I'm picturing a darker brown, like the default brown on the forum header here. Maybe do the background the darker color and the tooling highlights the lighter of the two, with the bulk of the actual artwork being left natural. Or, even if it's all the lighter color with the natural artwork, it would still look good (in my head anyway).

Oh yeah, and if you get really handy with that brush technique you could feather a halo around the tooling too

Edited February 21, 2012 by Cyberthrasher

[Santo]

What backgrounder did you use? Looks great

[chancey77]

SEAT IS LOOKING WICKED!!!!!!!!! HOW DO YOU LIKE YOUR NEW TOOL????????!!!!!!!!!!???????

For the dying if you are going to use black, do not thin it down unless you are attempring to shade some things, but in my experience I want things the are black to be BLACK! So no need to thin down the dye, and it will take longer to dry and might leave the color kind of dull instead of vibrant.

Almost every single piece I ever work on I wish I could leave it plain, and sometimes I am right, maybe it would have looked better just natural, and hen I make the background black and the lines with a brush, it really comes to life.

If it where me I would make that seat Black and Natural, then do the oil/beeswax finish...And then make the lace black...but that is me...it is your seat and the artist:)

It is a lot more work to build up black dye then to just dye it black from the beginning...DO NOT THIN IT DOWN! Just go straight for the throat and don't try to shade it...it will look cheesy!!!!!!! As they say at surfing meets and tattoo shops go big or go home:)

PS.

You still have some work to do on the nose and lips...practice it on a scrap piece, cut them with the swivel knife and beveler, and give a little shape to the lips they look to flat still, I know you have been putting it off in fear that you might overdue it, but it must be done..like pulling off a band aid:) hahahahaha---_=)e

Edited February 22, 2012 by chancey77

[Miloradovich]

Cyberthrasher,

Good suggestions, I will need to start practicing with the dyes. Thanks for the tip on dry brushing. One concern is definately what to do if the dye "bleeds" into the leather at all and what steps to prevent that.

Santo,

Thanks a bunch and I did the background with the E294. I started with the pebbled looking one, I think M882 but didn't like it as much as the way I was picturing it so I went over it all with the new one and hit it in there pretty hard to get more contrast. I followed Chancey's advice and twisted it back and forth with each strike with an even rhythm. Maybe a quarter turn or so between hits and rolled it back and forth. I think I was jamming to the Bastard Suns though instead of the Ramones.

Chancey,

Thanks, I am pleased with the outcome for sure even though some steps I didn't think I wanted to do. I like the new tool a lot but I definately need to practice and get a little "smoother" with it. I can already tell it would have sped my tooling up considerably in some spots and prevented the overalp marks from my beveler, which was just what I was after. I can tell it will be one of the main ones I reach for in the future.

As, for the dye, the thining I meant was for the brown. Originally I was picturing multiple shades of brown on the background and flowers to make the bone sections stand out. Now I like the flowers light too so I am thinking they need to stay natural with any dye just in the depressions. I bought a dark dye figuring I can make it lighter as need be and not have to buy a bunch. Any black I will want dark for the contrast and will definately be using black lace (already have that one ready).

I was considering myself done with the tooling but I do see what you mean about the nose and lips. They did give me some trouble to make they stand out but I didn't want a whole lot of extra texture around them. The more I look at them though I probably will play around with them some.

Not getting a lot of time to spend on it in the evenings but I am making progress here and there. I got the base riveted to the pan and the foam glued on. Next step is punching the holes in the top peice and getting it ready to lace. There are quite a few more steps in a seat than I had imagined when I starting it and like everything I do, it takes longer than I anticipate, but I am really enjoying it so far and learning a lot as I go.

I really appriciate all the input and advice I recieve here.

Milo

[Cyberthrasher]

Cyberthrasher,

Good suggestions, I will need to start practicing with the dyes. Thanks for the tip on dry brushing. One concern is definately what to do if the dye "bleeds" into the leather at all and what steps to prevent that.

I think the dry brushing is the best way to prevent it. Obviously there's large open spots in your background that you could use more dye on the brush because you don't have to worry about it bleeding. Once you get a feel for how it spreads, you can move onto the smaller areas. Most of the videos I've seen have shown them using up the dye on their work and then once most of the dye is off of the brush, using it to feather and make a transition into the non-dyed area. I think that would be the best time to brush the tooling, when it's empty. But, I've only used the eco-flo crap so far, so you may get less bleeding with a better quality dye.

Now, who votes for Chancey to write a new Leathercraft book for us non-traditional types????