Damascus Knives

[frogsaw]

I have been considering buying a better head knife and adding to my workbench a curved and a straight trim knife. Now that Tandy has their damascus knives on sale, I am curious to know what others think of these knives?

[Glendon]

I am by no means an expert on steel, but here are my thoughts. I was going to buy the A.S Damascus knife myself, but after looking at what the custom makers are using, I'm not as up on the idea of Damascus as I was. I'm sure one of our resident knife makers will be along, but from what I've read, Damascus is such a general style now that quality can be all over the place. And at $70, I the Tandy Damascus is probobly not the best edge you can get for the price.

[TwinOaks]

A history of Damascus is available on Wiki.....that said, here's the short version. 'Damascus' was prized for it's durability because of the process in which it was made. The ancient smiths discovered a way to remove impurities to produce a better steel. That process was actually lost, but somewhat rediscovered when a blade smith started forge welding different alloys together. That's what causes the patterning of the steel - different alloys or grades of steel, and then an acid wash removes some of the "lesser steel" to reveal the pattern. Much of that is also true of traditional Japanese blades, particularly the Katana. The multiple folding of the blade was to pound out the impurities (and pound IN the carbon) to produce a homogenous steel which out performed steel that wasn't. Fast forward a couple of hundred years into the world of electron microscopes that can see the granular structure of the steel. Today's steel is pretty much homogenous from the mill. It's alloys are carefully calculated and combined in crucibles to produce steels that are exponentially better than the ancient innovations. Exact amounts of Carbon, Vanadium, Scandium, Chromium, Manganese, etc. (really, pick a trace element and you can probably get it made) are added during the smelting process instead of relying on (often) widely varying billets supplied to the smith (who had to forge weld the pieces together and beat out the impurities). Forging, hardening, and tempering (drawing) temperatures are an exact science. And yes, that was the short version.

If you like the look of the 'Damascus' (pattern welded) steel, then by all means get one....but don't do so because of the perception that the steel is in any way superior to what's produced today.

Side note: One of the reasons Katanas are such good slicers is that a true katana has a dendritic blade.......it has microscopic cracks in the edge of the blade where softer steel is removed during the polishing of the blade, leaving the harder carbides. The result is that it's almost a serrated edge. That cracking occurs during the quenching of the blade, which is forged straight. The quench hardens the edge and the combination of clay to insulate and the thicker cross section means the spine of the blade cools slower. Since steel shrinks when it cools, the back of the blade literally pulls the thinner edge into a curve.

Yep....I can ramble on when I get started......anyway - buy damascus for beauty not any supposed specific metallurgical properties.

[frogsaw]

Mike & Glendon,

I appreciate the information. As a beginner, I started with the advise from my local Tandy Rep to use if box cutter. As I began to understand the limitations of the box cutter and learned more about traditional tools such as the head knife, I decided to buy my first head knife, and I purchased the Al Stolhman medium head knife. Everything has been going as expected with learning how to use a new tool, but my curiosity was definitely peaked when I could purchase a $149.99 Damascus for $59.99. When I purchased the standard head knife and eventually shortened the handle to better fit my hand. The Damascus knife has a silver cap on the handle, leading me to believe that the handle of this knife may not be so easily modified. Does anyone know if that is an accurate assumption?

Thanks,

Jim

[TwinOaks]

It's just more ....complicated...that's all.

Now, here's the important part: What does it tell you about the 'damascus' knives if they're selling them at less than 50% of retail?

[Bluesman]

This is my take. If you want a good round knife and don't want to spend $$$$$, See Bruce Johnson for refurbsihed goodies. If you wan't to spend some $$$$ and want a LOOKER, see any of the folks mentioned above. The bottom line is this. If you know how to sharpen a blade, and reallt like to do this often, buy a Tandy. And I mean with several different stones and a strop. If you don't , see above. Pay Da Man and live happy. Strop the knife and move on. In all my years and all my hobbies if I just added up the bad moves on tooling, well I wouldn't have this chit load of bad tooling. Just Sayin'

[mlapaglia]

Lets make this easy. The Current Tandy Round/head knives Damascus or otherwise are Carp!!!! I had one and took it back it would not hold an edge and was a real pain to sharpen. I am saving for a good knife. I believe that if you buy the Tandy round knife you will return it. Its a shame that the name Al Stohlman doesnt mean quality anymore.

[Bluesman]

Lets make this easy. The Current Tandy Round/head knives Damascus or otherwise are Carp!!!! I had one and took it back it would not hold an edge and was a real pain to sharpen. I am saving for a good knife. I believe that if you buy the Tandy round knife you will return it. Its a shame that the name Al Stohlman doesnt mean quality anymore.

Say's it All....................

[frogsaw]

Thanks again for the information. I assure you that your words are not falling on deaf ears. I will keep saving!

[electrathon]

They are not real Damascus. They have a thick solid core of steel, laminated with layers of thinner outer layers for appearance. This is not a quality knife.

Aaron

[Glendon]

They are not real Damascus. They have a thick solid core of steel, laminated with layers of thinner outer layers for appearance. This is not a quality knife.

Aaron

Did not know that. Ya, even I not having any real blade knowledge can figure out why that is a bad idea. No wonder they don't hold an edge. I'll keep saving too. The good solid utility knife with regularly replaced blades will do until then.

[oldtimer]

They are not real Damascus. They have a thick solid core of steel, laminated with layers of thinner outer layers for appearance. This is not a quality knife.

Aaron

I don´t even think the steel is laminated, I think the "Damascus" pattern is etched.

Buy an old knife, Gomph or Osborne, from Bruce Johnson, top quality.

"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"

Edited May 21, 2012 by oldtimer

[Knipper]

Aaron is correct. I'm not even sure that there are any "layers" at all. The pattern you see has been etched on the blade, and it does not result from forge welding multiple layers of steel together. They are using a variety of 410 stainless steel which contains .15 percent of carbon in it, and good knives require a minimum of 1 full % to get hard enough to take an edge ( I would accept anything down to .75 or 3/4 of one percent . They make no mention of any other kind of steel used in making the knife. "Damascus" or more correctly, "Pattern welded steel" usually uses at least two different types of high carbon steel (or high carbon stainless steel) when it is made. This knife has neither. 410 stainless was never intended to be a cutlery steel. Its used for tableware, pipes and pipe fittings as well as many other products. Can you get an edge on it? Sure...but you can also get a cutting edge on a tin can cover...yes it will cut...for about 6 inches before it starts to bog down cutting leather. Use what you like, but just be aware of the quality you are buying!

To put it in perspective, if I were to buy a piece of real damascus, (stainless or otherwise), to make a head knife, a piece that size would cost me around $200...more if from an established, famous maker of pattern welded steel. Selling one for that low price is a Dead give away. I don't even use the "good stuff" as it doesn't really cut any better that plain steel...it just looks prettier!

Knipper,

[deloid]

I I like my ancient 'rose' my old osbornes but they don't hold an edge long enough. I am pretty certain they were fine to start with but were abused at some point in their life. I'm going to make a version out of 1095, properly forged and heat treated. I prefer a slight convex geometry and I know this combo will make the edge remain sharp for very long periods of use. I'll put up som photos when I'm done.

Damascus is fine for admiring and does have some wear patterns as mentioned above that will help cut a tomato but for leather just stick to a high carbon steel.

[mike miller]

I bought a blank from a friend and am going to grind my own. it is made out of D2 and will hold a edge.

The other replies are correct if the damascus is that cheap, it is for a reason. It can only be decoration , not for use continually. A lot of the Pakistan damascus looks nice but the steel makeup is not the same as the steel most people use for edge holding.

[DavidD]

I was looking at this same knife because of the sale as well. I know the difference quality makes so I'll invest in a really good one and save myself some frustration. I highly value your advice, thank you!

[Chef niloc]

1337604184[/url]' post='248807']

I don´t even think the steel is laminated, I think the "Damascus" pattern is etched.

Buy an old knife, Gomph or Osborne, from Bruce Johnson, top quality.

"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"

Yes these are just made from cheep steel etched to look like Damascus