Horse Butts?

[UberSquid]

I recently ordered some horse butts from Springfield and loved the first two that I got. The grain patter was awesome when dyed brown or mahogany, it burnished really well and molded nicely. I really liked the stuff but it seemed like there was a lot of waste at the ends. Not that I could complain too much since it was only $12!

Once that was used up I ordered some more but I'm not too happy with the first one I'm working with. It doesn't have the same grain texture, it's thinner, it's not as stiff and it just doesn't work as well as the last batch did. I haven't tried the others in the order yet though.

Anyone else tried the horse butts from Springfield? Any issues? Did I just get one bad butt or is it usually hit and miss?

I've been using this for prototypes so it's not really a loss since they are going to go in the bin or become my personal carry holsters anyway.

Just to make clear though, this in no way is a complaint about Springfield, I think they have wonderful customer service and have been happy with them at every transaction. I'm just wondering what other people's experience has been with this particular product. I'm trying to decide if I want to keep using the horse butts to make these holsters or if I should just order a double shoulder on my next purchase.

Thanks

Jeremiah

Edited July 9, 2012 by UberSquid

[Steven Kelley]

Generally, the horse butts you buy from Springfield, or anyone else for that matter, that are in the $10 - $15 per piece range are seconds from Horween's. They could be seconds because of grain, thickness, defects, etc, so expect a lot of waist. You can order the premium horse butts from Horween's or from Maverick Leather Co. The premium butts are sold by the pound, and generally run about $12 per pound, so each strip will be $25 - $30. I've used both hard and soft rolled butts, and generally prefer the hard rolled personally. The ones you buy from Springfield are hard rolled.

I've used some of the premium butts and honestly don't think they are worth the extra $$. The ends are still thin so there will be a good deal of waist. There are fewer flaws (scars, scratches, etc), but I can't say that my yield was much better from the premium strips. I would suggest trying horse butts from Zach White leather. I've found the quality of theirs to be much better than Springfield. They are still seconds, but they seem to be nicer than any I've received from Springfield.

If you get to the point of ordering very large quantities, then going directly to Horween's and paying by the pound might be justified, as the price/pound goes down the more you buy.

[Haystacker]

I have an identical experience. I am a big fan of Springfield Leather too. I made a lined custom order cross draw for a Ruger New vaquero. Worked great and the horse butt grain is amazing when it's dyed. Seems that the horse butt was only 5/6 oz so worked good with a layer of 3/4 cow hide glued to it.

[UberSquid]

I've really enjoyed working the horse hide. It sure looks good when you get a nice piece.

I'm concidering buying a Hermann Oak shoulder for my next run though. Horse butts are fun but it's frustrating at times trying to cut pieces of consistent thickness and I hate to see that much scrap go into the box.

[Lobo]

I have gone through about a hundred of the horse butts from Springfield, usually ordering about 50 at a time. There is considerable difference in thickness, size, grain structure, etc. I don't mind at all since I use the leather for a variety of products including holsters, pouches, and belts, so there is very little wasted leather.

My understanding is that these are (as noted above) 'seconds' from Horween's, so they are not suitable for all applications (especially items requiring large pieces of very uniform characteristics). Holsters and pouches typically require relatively small pieces, so patterns can be laid out to utilize portions that meet the needs of each piece (weight, thickness, etc). Holsters for the larger and heavier handguns can be accomodated by the thicker and more uniform portions; holsters for smaller and lighter handguns can use other portions; and pouches can be made with much of the rest. The only serious limitation I have found is for belts, since very few of the horse butts will permit cutting straps longer than about 48" or so in length. Even so, I am averaging about 5 completed products per butt. Those making fewer pieces, or less variety, will probably experience higher waste.

I use the horsehide primarily for IWB-style holsters and shoulder holsters, which benefit most from the moisture resistant qualities of horsehide because these products are continually exposed to moisture from perspiration during use. One horse butt will easily make one of my shoulder holsters with off-side mag pouches, and the thinner portions work very well for the shoulder holster straps. IWB-style holsters will run about 4 to 6 units per butt, with a fair amount of smaller pieces left for mag pouches, etc.

There is a definite learning curve to be made when working with horsehide. It cuts beautifully, very clean and sharp edges. Dressing and burnishing edges is a breeze. Wet-forming requires much longer times in the water to achieve the required results; I usually soak pieces for 10 minutes or more before starting to form. Boning is straightforward and requires only moderate effort, provided moisture content and temperatures are correct. The optimum working period seems to be about 10 minutes or so after forming with the piece heated in a drying cabinet set to about 125F, allowing for quick and accurate boning that is retained very well.

Dyeing takes some practice, since horsehide does not absorb liquids as readily or evenly as cowhide might. Save small pieces cut off during the production process and use those to test your dyes and application methods and the results you are seeking will be easier to achieve.

The hard rolled horsehide can develop surface cracking during the forming process, especially if it is formed without adequate moisture content.

Dyed horsehide can develop surface cracking at stress points and flex areas, exposing underlying areas that have not been penetrated by the dyes. This can be overcome by replenishing moisture content after forming by modest applications of neatsfoot oil, providing a bit more flexibility in the leather at stress points.

In my opinion, horsehide is an excellent material for some applications, and the currently available horse butts from Springfield are an excellent value. Working time with horsehide is generally higher than cowhide. Methods must be adjusted to achieve the required results, and some of what we have learned with cowhide just won't work with horsehide.

For those who have not worked with horsehide before I recommend playing with it through several sample projects before starting on a new order.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Lobo

[UberSquid]

Lobo, that is exactly the look I've been trying to get out of my horse hide! I could get that nice variegated look with the Eco-Flow all in one but I wasn't happy with having to stain after stitching and forming.

Right now I'm using Fiebings Pro Oil dye misted on with an air brush and once it's dried going back over with a darker coat of Fiebings Antique paste to bring out the differences in the grain. It gives me that look but the Antique paste doesn't penetrate very far into the leather and I'd like to find something a bit more durable.

Would you be willing to share your dying process?

Beautiful work all around!

Thank you for sharing!

Jeremiah

[Lobo]

Jeremiah:

Nothing to share as far as dyeing goes. The pieces shown are finished with nothing more than neatsfoot oil, acrylic sealant, and final finishing agent. The colors, and variations, shown are naturally occurring within the horsehide. Some hides will display it, some will not.

I would be careful about "misting on" any dyes, as noted in my earlier post the horsehide does not readily absorb any liquid and can easily start to display surface cracking that displays underlying material that does not absorb the dye and will be quite noticeable. Not familiar at all with the antique paste, but as you note it does not penetrate well, so the effect could be similar and the results could be disaster.

My best advice is to keep experimenting with sample pieces, use them for a while, and only take on commercial orders for those things that you know will stand up to rigorous use. Otherwise you may have disgruntled customers.

Replenishing the inherent moisture seems to me to be the key, and modest applications of neatsfoot oil seems to do the job for my needs.

Best regards.

Lobo, that is exactly the look I've been trying to get out of my horse hide! I could get that nice variegated look with the Eco-Flow all in one but I wasn't happy with having to stain after stitching and forming.

Right now I'm using Fiebings Pro Oil dye misted on with an air brush and once it's dried going back over with a darker coat of Fiebings Antique paste to bring out the differences in the grain. It gives me that look but the Antique paste doesn't penetrate very far into the leather and I'd like to find something a bit more durable.

Would you be willing to share your dying process?

Beautiful work all around!

Thank you for sharing!

Jeremiah

[Shooter McGavin]

Ray, that shoulder holster is a thing of beauty!

[Lobo]

Ray, that shoulder holster is a thing of beauty!

Thank you. Made for a railed 1911, if I remember correctly.

Shoulder holsters are not as popular as they were 20 years ago, but we still get orders for 3 or 4 per month. Anyone who has ever used a shoulder holster can tell you how damp they can become during use. Horsehide is an excellent material for this type of application.

[UberSquid]

Jeremiah:

Nothing to share as far as dyeing goes. The pieces shown are finished with nothing more than neatsfoot oil, acrylic sealant, and final finishing agent. The colors, and variations, shown are naturally occurring within the horsehide. Some hides will display it, some will not.

I would be careful about "misting on" any dyes, as noted in my earlier post the horsehide does not readily absorb any liquid and can easily start to display surface cracking that displays underlying material that does not absorb the dye and will be quite noticeable. Not familiar at all with the antique paste, but as you note it does not penetrate well, so the effect could be similar and the results could be disaster.

My best advice is to keep experimenting with sample pieces, use them for a while, and only take on commercial orders for those things that you know will stand up to rigorous use. Otherwise you may have disgruntled customers.

Replenishing the inherent moisture seems to me to be the key, and modest applications of neatsfoot oil seems to do the job for my needs.

Best regards.

That is interesting, I've never gotten horse hide to turn color that much with just neatsfoot oil. I'll have to experiment more with it. When I mist on dye I've been using oil based dye cut heavy with alcohol and put on wet to get better penetration. I'm happy with the dye it's just the stain that doesn't seem to go very deep so it's only been used on holsters for my personal guns up to this point. (I don't mind a bit of wear on my gear, it gives me an excuse to make a new one for myself.)

Again, beautiful work. Shoulder holsters have such a classic look and you really nailed it!

[Rayban]

Also try Zack-White for their horse butts. I found them to be cleaner than the ones I was getting from S'field. Also they will ask if the butts are for belts or holsters and other projects. They will pick out the longer ones for belts.