Sold This On Etsy

[Chief31794]

I opened an ETSY site with just a few (9 I think) of the kinds of things I make and I've been getting quite a bit of traffic and sold two items already, hopefully those customers will give positive feedback and that will make other buyers more comfortable with my shop and buying from me.

I had never carved a crown of thorns with three nails, but the lady who bought this Bible Cover asked for it so I got two separate line drawings together, combined them and created this graphic on the front cover. I kind of like it, I normally carve a cross on the back of these with the praying hands on the front. I think these crown of thorns carvings may sell as well.

Let me know what you think.

Ken

Edited July 13, 2012 by Chief31794

[serena]

Beautiful work, Im sure the customer will be very pleased.

[WinterBear]

So you going to post us a link to your etsy store?

[Chief31794]

So you going to post us a link to your etsy store?

Sure,

Thanks for asking. I had it in my profile, but probably good to post it here as well.

http://www.etsy.com/shop/ChiefsLeatherWorks?ref=si_shop

Ken

Beautiful work, Im sure the customer will be very pleased.

Thanks Serena.

Ken

[WinterBear]

Ooh, thanks. I couldn't get the profile page to load. Gonna go gawp.

[morgans leather]

great work i really like the three nails and thorn crown carving .

[Anacott Steel]

Some really nice work Ken. And given the work you must have put in tooling these, they're a steal !

[Chief31794]

Some really nice work Ken. And given the work you must have put in tooling these, they're a steal !

Thanks, I'm retired and love to carve leather so I decided early on that I wouldn't be able to recover the cost of the labor. I want to be able to make leather projects and have the hobby pay for itself so I set my prices reasonable thinking that they would; 1) Sell Better, 2) Provide a quicker turn on investment, and 3) Provide me a reason to be in my shop and not bothering my wife.

My thinking is that on this Bible Cover the actual cost is:

Hermann Oak 5 Oz (Springfield splits it to exact weights on request, what a great place to do business): 1.3 sq ft at $7.69 per sq ft = $9.97 (Includes 10% waste factor)

Inside flaps from 2/3 oz Oak Leaf tooling leather: .84 sq ft at $5.35 per sq ft = $4.50

Pigskin Lining: 2 sq ft at $2.29 per sq ft = $4.58

Leather Lace: 14 yds at $.36 per yd = $5.04

Materials Cost = $24.09

Incidentals (knife blade wear, dye, finish, rags, sheep's wool, etc) = 5% of Material Costs = $1.20

Total Cost = $25.29

To set my selling price, I double the cost and round so my selling price is $50.00 (prices are reduced for July on the ETSY shop sort of a grand opening sale) that allows me to recover my cost and sustain cash flow, it also increases sales in that I will sell more Bible Covers at this price point than I would at an actual cost price point.

If I were to recover labor it would be:

Layout, Cutting, and Leather Preparation: 1 hour

Carving and Tooling: 4 hours

Dying and Finishing (Not including drying time): 1 hour

Assembly (Lacing): 2 hours

Packaging and Shiping: 1 hour

Total: 9 hours

So even if I set my pay rate at $10.00 an hour, which is a steal the Bible Cover would price at $115.00

If I were to set it at $30.0 an hour which is a modest wage for a craftsman the Bible Cover price would be $295.00

I don't think I would sell many at those prices so I made a decision that I could probably sell 10 at $50 and would probably not be able to sell 2 at $295. If the orders get to flowing too much, I'll raise my prices and try to keep my hobby going while maintaining my retired life style.

Thanks,

Ken

Edited July 13, 2012 by Chief31794

[Chief31794]

great work i really like the three nails and thorn crown carving .

Thanks, I wasn't sure about it when she requested it but I kind of like it too. I carved a sample on scrap and sent her pictures, she approved, said she loved it, so this was the 2nd time I carved the design, I think if I continue to do them, they will get better and more detailed.

Ken

[J Allen]

As you can see your not doubling your material cost... your loosing money.

I have no problem with you giving your stuff away, just be aware when you and others sell your stuff at a loss it makes those who are selling their stuff at a fair and reasonable price have to explain why their stuff is priced the way it is. If they even get the opportunity to explain, as most folks just move on. I despise the idea that craftsmen should have to explain why they ask a fair and reasonable price for a quality item or lower their pricing or compromise quality to "compete".

Just saying

[Chief31794]

As you can see your not doubling your material cost... your loosing money.

I have no problem with you giving your stuff away, just be aware when you and others sell your stuff at a loss it makes those who are selling their stuff at a fair and reasonable price have to explain why their stuff is priced the way it is. If they even get the opportunity to explain, as most folks just move on. I despise the idea that craftsmen should have to explain why they ask a fair and reasonable price for a quality item or lower their pricing or compromise quality to "compete".

Just saying

I'm confused, you say I'm not doubling my material cost, my material cost is $25.29. By my arithmatic 25.29 doubled is 50.58, I'm rounding down and charging $50. How am I not doubling my Material cost. Shipping is paid separate. Please enlighten me.

Ken

[J Allen]

Mathematically yes you double your material cost. But you loose money in time.

Again you can sell your stuff for whatever you want. Its a feee market and a free country.

It is a shame you dont value your talent more. Thats all Im saying.

[4everlether]

I opened an ETSY site with just a few (9 I think) of the kinds of things I make and I've been getting quite a bit of traffic and sold two items already, hopefully those customers will give positive feedback and that will make other buyers more comfortable with my shop and buying from me.

I had never carved a crown of thorns with three nails, but the lady who bought this Bible Cover asked for it so I got two separate line drawings together, combined them and created this graphic on the front cover. I kind of like it, I normally carve a cross on the back of these with the praying hands on the front. I think these crown of thorns carvings may sell as well.

Let me know what you think.

Ken

nice work

[DoubleC]

As always beautiful work Ken. Cheryl

[Chief31794]

nice work

Thanks,

Ken

As always beautiful work Ken. Cheryl

Thanks Cheryl,

I appreciate the nice comments.

Ken

[Mike516]

Very nice work.

My first thought before I even saw any other posts was the same as J Allen. I don't sell wallets and stuff like you have, but I can see his point. One of the things I do sell is bookmarks, and I had asked some people on another chat board what they thought of my Etsy store and not a week later someone from that board posted their "new" Etsy store and they were selling exact copies of the bookmarks I make. I know a lot of people don't have any imagination and are too lazy to come up with their own ideas, but the thing that aggravated me was they are selling them at a loss and there's no way I can compete with someone like that. I don't know what the quality of their leather is and they just stamp everything, but they do A LOT of painting on them so it has to take a good amount of time and 4 bucks is just ridiculous.

Like JA said, you can do what you want, but I do agree with him you're selling yourself short and lowering the bar so low, no one making what you do will be able to compete.

Someone even told me once they've heard there are people who will buy handmade stuff that's cheap like yours, and resell it.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Mike 516, and J Allen, I agree, and disagree with the pricing issues. This was brought up on my blacksmithing site too. One should be paid correctly for their time,and skills, this is universally agreed upon. Now, what one person deems correct will be different then someone else's idea of correct. Cost of living, overhead, location, clientel, etc will all affect this.

Now to say that someone selling for a lower price will affect you is fuzzy logic in some ways. Are your products exactly the same, do you have the exact same customers, are you selling in the same store,location?(even on Etsy it could be hard to see all of ones options)Look at it this way, not everyoe can afford the same items. Cars are a good example-they are all cars, but some are far less money than others. Does Kia bring down Lamborghini's value? No, because they have different customer bases. The owner of a Holland and Holland shotgun will have a different perception of value than the owner of a Mossberg 500. If you are selling a comparable item for more money you need to sell the customer on why it is more IE; better quailty, better customer service, warranty,you'll get laid more, whatever you feel makes it worth more than someone else's. Don't expect someone to look at your item and say "It's handmade, so it must be worth what he is asking." I see a lot of crappy items being passed off as Handmade by Skilled Craftsman. If you want to be considered skilled, show some skill, and sell it to the customer. Marketing isn't easy, it requires a lot of work to pry money out of someone's wallet, especially in a poorly performing economy.

If Chief can make these, and sell them consistently for more then it costs to make them then he is money ahead. Yes, he MAY be able to sell them for more, but will he be better off? In the end he may make more money by selling at a lower price that the customer perceives is a better value. A lower price may allow him to keep a steady cashflow going, as opposed to a more lengthy period between checks. As I said before a lot affects pricing. One of the biggest is perceived value by the customer. What I may value at one price will be different from someone else. We perceive value every day, be it figuring out what we want to eat for lunch, filling up the car's tank, shopping for clothes, every day we are applying our perceived value on our purchases. To say that all leatherworkers need to make $30,$35,$40 an hour is ridiculous. It is the craftsman that finds his niche ,and can profit from it , that will succeed in the end. That is why it is called capitalism, not socialism.

Edited July 14, 2012 by BIGGUNDOCTOR

[dirtclod]

Nice work Chief !

After looking around on that site i seen far more cheap over priced leather work than their was nice work under priced.

That was looking at leather purses, bags, rifle slings, billfolds, guitar straps, business card cases and belts. I will have to say it blows my mind sometimes to see the junk that people buy and think they have bought the best ones ever made just because it cost more. That or it's the best because it came from this or that place and it's better that yours because they have a bigger store.

Edited July 14, 2012 by dirtclod

[Mike516]

@ Biggun...not sure why you named me because your points have mostly nothing to do with what I said.

But I have to say, no offense, but I think you picked two items out of thin air, cars and shotguns, to compare this issue to. Cars are priced based on assembly line efficiency, which they spend tons of money on, quality of materials and a whole bunch of other stuff. You can't compare craftsman who make handmade original items to a car manufacturer. I don't see the connection. Lamborghini competing with Kia isn't the same as two guys who make hand carved leather wallets, one charging the cost of materials and one charging by the hour. To a lesser extent, the shotgun analogy is flawed but for the same reason. Sorry dude, don't want to start an argument but I don't think your comparison is valid.

That said, I specifically said I don't make the same things Chief does, but I can understand the argument that he's too cheap. My beef is with people who copy other people's design's then run them out of business by charging like $1 an hour for their work. Maybe it's not exactly on topic here but some of the comments made me think of that.

[DoubleC]

I guess I didn't really address anything but Chiefs work because I was hoping not to have to say what I feel about his pricing. He's trying to cover his costs and kill time. Well I make guitar straps and I'm not trying to do either. Are they exactly like his? Of course not. Does an average buyer understand the difference? Of course not. I love Chiefs work and he can do as he pleases, but I honestly think it would just be 'nicer' to sell his stuff somewhere since he doesn't care about the money, or maybe need it. 20-30-40 bucks an hour? I have to break down my product costs to the penny for the business plan I'm doing for the grant, and last we figured I'm making around 3 bucks an hour for a strap. I'm ok with that because I love doing it, but I at least want a playing field where I CAN make my 3 freakin bucks.

I got in this not because I'm gonna go out of business no matter what happens on this thread, but because I know how hard I work and Big you really don't seem to get it. People don't know jack about leather, but they know the difference between a Lamborghini and a Kia.

AND i SOLD THREE PIECES OF JEWELRY ON ETSY TODAY AND IT'S BEEN A WONDERFUL DAY FOR ME. I hope it is for all you too. Cheryl

[Chief31794]

One thing to think about, Bibles are available from $5.99 to about $60.00 for the most expensive Bible in General. Anyone can charge any price they like, that doesn't set a price point. The Price Point is set by what people in the market place will pay for an item. $50.00 for a cover for an item that costs an average of $25.00 seems to indicate that the cover would be more important than what it's protecting. I don't think so, but that's just me. I could ask for $150.00 for the cover and I estimate I may sell one someday which would net me $125.00 in profit at some point in the future maybe. I have sold about 10 of these (not on ETSY, I just started there, but at craft fairs and people visiting the shop) which has netted me $250.00 in profit to date and I suspect I will sell many more, in fact I had another order today at the craft fair so that will make 11 and $275.00 profit. The way I look at it, I'm guaranteed $125 more profit than estimated sales at the higher price and perhaps $275.00 because I may never sell one at $150.00. If someone else makes one that is worth $150 or $300 then people will buy it and I haven't affected their sales. I don't think the people who are concerned about paying $50.00 would opt for paying $150-$300 for a Bible cover if they had never seen mine.

I love making leather items and would do so if no one ever bought them, this just gives me a way of getting rid of items I have or will make and provides me a string of income to buy more leather, dyes, finishes, and tools and make more leather which is what I love to do.

I'm happy and so are my customers.

Ken

[bluesman1951]

I have been making things for many years and selling in a tough wholesale market here in New Mexico. I can see your point ,then there is reality . The only thing that matters is at what point does the customer say yes I want that and reach for his wallet. Every thing else is just a load of wind . Here artists are famous for being less than great salesman simple as that .We all wish our work brought more ,in the end the public sets the prices by saying yes or no to our work . You can sell work any where in this country ,until you have sold in Santa Fe its hard to understand pricing . No one wishes to work for free ,in the end we all strive to do the best we can . I never count the time ,I average 3 times cost of material and shoot for 5 times most days . New Mexico pricing is like this : Lets say I sell a bag for 10.00 to a wholesaler ,he then adds 20 to 25 % the store owner buys and expects to triple his cost so now when the bag hits the shelf it must be believable to the retail customer at 40.00 . Jewellery is worse as the mark up is 7 times money thats how 50% off sales are possible . A Santa Fe store paying 30,000 a month plus all the extras simply cant stay in business just doubling the money . You are staying afloat at 7 times money ,brutal sounding but its a fact . Lots of empty stores to prove it ,people try and realise when the rents due they arent making it . There are more artists here than any where in the country the competition is fierce . Rember this is where a good piece of pottery will sell for 10,000 and its not a rare event just every day stuff . Think I am kidding Goggle "Robert Rivera Gourds Prices " and see for yourself . Bluesman1951

Mathematically yes you double your material cost. But you loose money in time.

Again you can sell your stuff for whatever you want. Its a feee market and a free country.

It is a shame you dont value your talent more. Thats all Im saying.

[bluesman1951]

I am in total agreement with your thinking .I dont do shows as it goes against my grain to pay someone for selling my work . In 25 years other than a flea market I have never payed show fees . Selling to wholesalers gets your profit and principle in one stroke . Most days I sell every thing I take every time I go . I could never survive selling items one at a time . You have a love of the work and a joy in doing it and in many ways thats a great reward . Helps also to have some money when in line at Smiths to buy groceries . I wish you continued success with your work . Bluesman1951

One thing to think about, Bibles are available from $5.99 to about $60.00 for the most expensive Bible in General. Anyone can charge any price they like, that doesn't set a price point. The Price Point is set by what people in the market place will pay for an item. $50.00 for a cover for an item that costs an average of $25.00 seems to indicate that the cover would be more important than what it's protecting. I don't think so, but that's just me. I could ask for $150.00 for the cover and I estimate I may sell one someday which would net me $125.00 in profit at some point in the future maybe. I have sold about 10 of these (not on ETSY, I just started there, but at craft fairs and people visiting the shop) which has netted me $250.00 in profit to date and I suspect I will sell many more, in fact I had another order today at the craft fair so that will make 11 and $275.00 profit. The way I look at it, I'm guaranteed $125 more profit than estimated sales at the higher price and perhaps $275.00 because I may never sell one at $150.00. If someone else makes one that is worth $150 or $300 then people will buy it and I haven't affected their sales. I don't think the people who are concerned about paying $50.00 would opt for paying $150-$300 for a Bible cover if they had never seen mine.

I love making leather items and would do so if no one ever bought them, this just gives me a way of getting rid of items I have or will make and provides me a string of income to buy more leather, dyes, finishes, and tools and make more leather which is what I love to do.

I'm happy and so are my customers.

Ken

[DoubleC]

Bill, I'm confused why you think we don't know how to sell on this forum since most of us do it all the time, and also why you think Santa Fe has all the artists? If you sell trees in a rain forest it might be as tough as you say but if you have your own flair you can sell anywhere. We have a ton of artists in the com munity I live in, and I'm sure that's true a lot of places. And I'm HONESTLY confused what that has to do with this thread. I'm not being m ean, I truly am confused. Cheryl

[bluesman1951]

I hardly know what to say , if the work is under-priced and worth more, then the proper thing to do is hold ones tounge and buy all you can sell in a different market until the supply goes away . Then find another talented person and buy their work . If its about money then thats what you do ,make money . As a observer and participant for many years I can say that more talent means more money and there are buyers at all levels . For some 50.00 sales are everything and for others 500.00 sales are common . Its not the same for all of us and thats evident by the threads here . I cant put years of wholesale experience into a few words here simply no way to explain that . Friend told me once : what ever denomination of money you think in is the denomination you will make . If you think tens and twenty s then that will be your lot ,if you think 500.00 is the normal course of things then that will be your lot as well . Final thought on money : When the outgoing exceeds the incoming then your up keep becomes your down fall . (Pastor Butch Paul) Wish there was a way to make it better for all . Bluesman1951

I guess I didn't really address anything but Chiefs work because I was hoping not to have to say what I feel about his pricing. He's trying to cover his costs and kill time. Well I make guitar straps and I'm not trying to do either. Are they exactly like his? Of course not. Does an average buyer understand the difference? Of course not. I love Chiefs work and he can do as he pleases, but I honestly think it would just be 'nicer' to sell his stuff somewhere since he doesn't care about the money, or maybe need it. 20-30-40 bucks an hour? I have to break down my product costs to the penny for the business plan I'm doing for the grant, and last we figured I'm making around 3 bucks an hour for a strap. I'm ok with that because I love doing it, but I at least want a playing field where I CAN make my 3 freakin bucks.

I got in this not because I'm gonna go out of business no matter what happens on this thread, but because I know how hard I work and Big you really don't seem to get it. People don't know jack about leather, but they know the difference between a Lamborghini and a Kia.

AND i SOLD THREE PIECES OF JEWELRY ON ETSY TODAY AND IT'S BEEN A WONDERFUL DAY FOR ME. I hope it is for all you too. Cheryl