Kangaroo Lace - Color Bleeding

[Tracym]

I mentioned this in another post, but that was in the suppliers forum, probably not the best place.

I have made some kangaroo dog leads, and I've been happy with how they turned out. I use purchased lace. I generally conditioned and stretched the leather, braided it, then conditioned it again before rolling. But this last batch of leather I got, the color bled, particularly the black leather. Unfortunately, this completely ruined one lead, as the black was braided with a lighter color.

Is this bleeding of color normal? I just used Lexol. I realized doing some more, it got on my hands when I was stretching the lace.

What can I do about this? Do all the conditioning before braiding it? But people need to be able to clean it once it's done...

Thanks!

Edited August 5, 2012 by Tracym

[Aggiebraider]

Well first I wouldnt use Lexol to braid with. Especially on kangaroo. Lexol is designed to condition old leather that is dried out, not new leather that is nice. If you arent interested in making your own braiding soap, just use the WHITE Fiebings saddle soap. Its much milder than other soaps, and it should dry things out too much. Make sure you clean off as much of the soap when youre done as you can, and then go over the top with a little olive oil. Soap takes the oil out of leathers, so you need to add it back. When you are soap the leather and stretch it, some of the color should come out if its going to. If that doesnt help, start cutting your own lace. I really think it has a lot to do with the type of tannage the leather you are using has. Veg tan leather if done properly, shouldnt bleed much or at all.

Hope this helps

[Tracym]

Well when this stuff comes off the roll, it is pretty dry and stiff, sigh. I'll see if I can find the Fiebings saddle soap - thank you. The only thing with the olive oil - on the lighter colors (natural, pink, etc.) won't it darken the leather?

I wasn't thinking all this bleeding was good, the first leather I got didn't do that, the recent batch is.

I might try to make my own braiding soap - what do you suggest?

[Aggiebraider]

The saddle soap will also soften it. My soap has 1 bar of Ivory soap shredded, 1/2 bar of glycerin, and a splash of olive oil. Melt the ivory in a couple cups of boiling water, then take it down to a simmer and put the glycerin in, then when everything is melted, add in the oil. Make sure you shave off the soaps either with a knife or cheese grater. Then once everything has cooled a little, put it in a blender and blend the crap out of it. Then put it in whatever container you want, once it cools completely, it will be between whipped cream and mashed potato consistency. You might play with the water amount to get the consistency you want. After it has hardened, you can always add it to more water and blend again if its too solid.

The olive oil will darken it some, but not as much as you think. Try it out on a test piece and see what you think. Its definitely not as bad as neatsfoot. You should be able to google white fiebings saddle soap and find it easy enough. You might just have to order it

[Tracym]

Hmm my post didn't show up. Apologies in advance if it now shows up twice.

What I discovered is, the leather doesn't bleed much right off the roll, even if I put a scrap in water. But - once it's beveled, it bleeds like crazy. Not sure what to do about that.

Where does one find a bar of glycerine? And how big is a bar? Sorry about the newbie question, google let me down on this one.

I'll look for the fiebings soap in the meantime, but if it bleeds in water, won't it bleed using the soap too? I really like to do a last conditioning before the final rolling, it seems to help.

Is this to be expected, or is this a bad batch of leather?

[benlilly1]

I haven't done any braiding. Just lacing. That seems weird that it would bleed out. You say it's stiff right off the roll? And in your other post did you say you got it from Springfield leather? I've not had that happen from the rolls I've gotten from Springfield. My only thought is the lexol is releasing the dye. Can you braid without putting anything on it?

[Tracym]

Yes, it's from Springfield. The latest stuff is much thicker and stiffer than the rolls I got before. It's not quite the same as my previous orders. I don't think it would braid up nice without something on it.

But in any case, people will want to clean it - so if the dye is coming out with the Lexol, I'm afraid it will do the same when they clean it.

[Aggiebraider]

Color bleeding out in leather is due to them putting too much dye in the leather, not necessarily that the color isnt really set in the leather. I dont think any color would ever bleed if just put in water. You really have to use friction to get the dye to come off, hence the reason it comes out when you rub something on it. When using soaps to braid with on leather, dont make it wet or mix it with water. Use the soap dry and rub it in. You want it to penetrate. Braiding is a completely different game than other leather disciplines, so sometimes you have to forget what you know about leather. The soap is only there to help you lubricate the strands so that they will pull in tight and not want to break on you. It will also help soften the leather but will also allow it to stretch if you dont get the stretch out before you braid. Even if you get a lot of the dye out early on, they still might bleed if you cleaned them later on. My ONLY foolproof advice for you is use higher quality leather. I know it takes a lot more practice and time, and it costs more initially, but if you TRULY care about the product you are making and the quality of your work, you will make your own lace.

Just my two cents

[Kiscien]

Hi Tracym!

In my opinion there is nothing uncommon in bleedeing the veg tanned leather. Sometimes more sometimes less, but in most cases I belive there will be such unpleasent effect. Only kind of leather where I have no problem with dye is chrome tanned leathers.

Anyway what to do about it? I call it closing the leather - just put some finisher on it . Finisher is a liquid that is gone to stop bleeding. Right now I'm in Europe, soon I will be in Canada so I can't give you any name of specific brand at the moment because here we are using produts from Italy mostly. I belive that Tandy has some ( I found thing like this on their site: Fiebing's Acrylic Resolene). Another kind of finisher is shellack, which is used by whips makers, or wood varnish which is good, but only to not bending areas.

Making leather thing without finishing it is something like making a wood table without varnishing it...

Hope I helped

Karol

[Tracym]

Thanks. By the way, it bleeds like crazy in plain water, no rubbing needed - I tried it, got black water. And it never stopped, no matter how much I rinsed it.

I have some sort of finishing spray from Tandy, but I was using it on the finished braid. I can try using some on the flesh side, before braiding, maybe that will help. And I'll look for the product mentioned.

As for cutting my own lace - maybe in the future. I don't know if I'll have enough volume. Plus, everyone seems to want colors (blue, green, pink) so I'd have to learn how to dye it too. Maybe one day.

[Kiscien]

Thanks. By the way, it bleeds like crazy in plain water, no rubbing needed - I tried it, got black water. And it never stopped, no matter how much I rinsed it.

It may be that you bought laces that seller dyed himself without sealing the leather. Don't worry about anything . It isn't something horrible.

Sometimes, if I have leather like this I take shellack, and I dumping the laces in it for a sec. It runs great. Than after I finish plate I put few coats of finisher and voila! Try it. It's cheap and allows to save nerves .

Also try to dye laces yourself. It's the same thing. Put it into some dye for few minutes, take it out and dry, dump it with shellack. Braid something and put some finisher.

Feel free to ask questions if you have some.

[Tracym]

The leather is from Birdsall. What happens though, I think I have figured out now, is that when I bevel it of course where it's beveled it's no longer sealed. Since the latest leather is thicker, I have to bevel more, practically splitting it, and more is exposed. It was pretty horrible for me haha, completely wrecked a braid that I have to do over in a hurry.

Shellack - interesting. Sorry, I am very new to this - is that a special leather shellack? Not what you put on furniture?

[Kiscien]

It's the same thing . I'm using flakes that with I'm making mixture, but this pure, ready to use shellack should be fine too.

[Tracym]

Well I am now completely frustrated. This new leather is just awful - it is so thick, I beveled and beveled it. It's stiff on the front, but soft and shaggy on the back. As soon as I condition it, it swells up. No matter how hard I try, the braid ends up too thick. I coated it with finishing protectant spray before I braided it, and again before I rolled it. Black bled onto it again, it's ruined. Lots of hours and $$ for nothing.

I guess others can work with this leather ok, they must know something I don't. I am so sad about this, this one was a special present for a special occasion. And now it won't happen

[Kiscien]

give photos, maybe I could figure something out. If you want of course.

[Tracym]

Thank you, I'm leaving town so cannot get any photos at the moment. I ordered some lace from a different source (y-knot) so perhaps that will solve the problem.

I do have some questions about conditioning though...

Based on prior advice, I've been putting lexol on the lace, then stretching it when wet (this seems to work). Then, once basically dry, braiding it. Then conditioning the finished braid before final rolling. But I have to do a lot of rolling to get it soft and smooth, which seemed to bring out the problems with the black and pink leather.

Is there a better regimen?

From reading here, it sounds like I should soap the strands, and braid while 'wet'. And use a finishing coat. But I have also read elsewhere about people soaking the leads in conditioner overnight, etc. Should I need some sort of conditioning in addition to soap and finishing coat?

[Kiscien]

I'm using only two things. Animal fat mixed with little water (pig mostly because it's cheap), but only for natural and black leathers, or vaseline mixed with water for other colors. Natural fat has horrible tendency to darken leather only black or natural looks good after this. Vaseline is a little bit worst but still good anough (remeber to add water). If you don't want to use those, maybe try one which Aggiebraider is describing in previous post. I don't know US brands so I can't advice you which one is good. But I think he knows what to reccomend.

- I always stretch leather after 10-15 minutes from soaking.

- Braid when laces has little coat of some plaiting soap on them. Your work will be tighter.

- Rolling is not for making braid soft. Only for making it smoother. If you have to make it for a long time, than you need to prepare your laces better. And yes. You have to seal the leather first, than braid when using two colors.

So shortly speaking: For plaiting use soap, not liquid conditioners. Leather can not stain when plaiting or after, if you making at least two tone plaits. Rolling is fast and easy to do. If you have problems with this, you need to prepare your laces better .

Hope it helps.

Karol

[Tracym]

Thank you very much. At least with this leather, I am obviously not getting it prepared well enough. I will try to find some better products. I really appreciate the help.

[Art]

I am not a great braider, but dressing it with Pecard's or Montana Pitchblend paste seems to work ok.

Art

[Tracym]

Thanks everyone. I am going to look into those products.

[Tracym]

I received some lace from y-knot - it seems to be very nice, thin and soft.

So please forgive the beginner questions, but using Pecard's to dress the leather and Fiebing's acrylic resolene to seal it, is the right order to do things?

Dress it with Pecard's (instead of the Lexol that I have been using)

Stretch it

Bevel it

Seal with Fiebing's

? braiding soap here? White saddle soap... or more Pecard's?

Braid it

Rolling

Final finish coat if necessary (I have a glossy spray, protectant, from Tandy I've been using)

I'm happy to read up on this, or buy another book, if anyone can recommend anything. I have Bruce Grant's encyclopedia, but that doesn't really seem to address this sort of thing, with the kangaroo lace.

[Kiscien]

The order you showed is the order I do.

About Pecard or saddle soap. Some makers use pecard some use saddle soap. I didn't use Pecard or soap sold in US so I don't know.

Ron Edwards - How to Make Whips. There You have everything you want about plaiting whips.

[Tracym]

Thank you so much. I am making dog leads, not whips, but I presume the techniques would be the same?

I also saw a book online "Braiding Fine Leather: Techniques of the Australian Whipmakers" by David W Morgan - does anyone recommend that one?

Edited August 16, 2012 by Tracym

[Tracym]

I've applied the Resolene - I did dilute it. My leather now feels quite stiff and a little tacky though - I'm hoping it just isn't all the way dry yet, and that the Pecards will help. Does that sound right?

[acox4t4]

Whow its not sounding like Roo leather to me, I've never bought any roo that was Thick? I've had some that was kinda frizzy on one side to where I took the advice of someone here to put the roo in Keroseen gas (spelling way off sorry) along with a stick of cooking wax chopped up in the gas. Put mixture in a stainless steel container large enough for the roo then to be soaked in it for a few minutes, pull the roo out and let it dry. This is of course all done outside. Once dry It no longer had the frizzy's on the one side and I was able to bevel it, the mixture made it very usable where I like you was wasting it all trying to bevel with the frizzy's. So if that someone is still reading these post, I hope that I gave the right directions on how to rid the frizzy's if anyone sees that I made a mistake on it please correct me since its been awhile since I did it.