Rub Off Rub Off Rub Off

[garytylermcleod]

I am working on a project in which dye rubbing off onto clothes from the grain side when wet is absolutely not OK. Having read everything on here multiple times and have conducted many smaller experiments on my own, I am now in the middle of a much larger controlled experiment. I am using veg tanned leather and testing the following concerning how they each contribute to preventing rub off. As these forums include just about every idea out there, I am curious as to your tried and tested experiences so I can incorporate them into my experiment.

Fiebings Oil Dyes VS. Fiebings Spirit Dyes

Does anybody have opinions on this?

Bag Kote VS. Resolene VS. Wyosheen (Neatlac)

These tend to be the main contenders. How many coats of each work for you? Has anyone used Wyosheen thinned with lacquer thinner in an airbrush? Has anyone ever combined 2 of these, in separate coats or otherwise?

Airbrushing VS. Hand Dyeing

So far, it is my hypotheses that hand dyeing is much better than using an airbrush. With an airbrush, the dye only sits on the surface no matter how much you apply! This seems so odd to me. I have read somewhere on Leatherworker.net that the solvent in the dye evaporates in the air leaving mostly pigment once the dye gets to the leather. This makes sense as to why the dye does not penetrate the surface at all! This has also been the result of some smaller experiments of mine. Have other people discovered this before?

Any other thoughts would be very helpful and I will certainly post all results!

[TwinOaks]

Well....not to be too critical about it, but your hypothesis that airbrushed dye doesn't penetrate is just plain wrong. If it had any validity, then the moment an airbrushed piece was tilted, the dry particles would fall off...like powder. Or if a few stuck, they could simply be wiped away, leaving clean leather with no stains (remember, you said "This makes sense as to why the dye does not penetrate at all!") And, it DOES matter how much you spray. The reason airbrushing is so popular is that it allows the user to get multiple tones/hues/saturation of the color on the leather without having lots of streaks, or needing to experiment with many levels of dilution. You can spray it straight and undiluted and still get different effects, AND use less dye for the project. Or, you can set it to "wide open" and completely saturate the leather....which may mean a refill of the resevoir, depending on how much it holds.

The reason airbrushed dye doesn't penetrate as deeply is that there is seldom enough sprayed to puddle on the leather and soak in....and you aren't using a dauber to rub the dye into the leather. Or you didn't clean the surface of the leather with deglazer / alcohol to remove anything that could act as a resist and also open the pores.

As to preventing "rub off", that's easy. Remove all non-absorbed dye particles before sealing and finishing. This is done by wiping the leather with a cloth and rubbing, and rubbing, and rubbing, and rubbing.....well you get the idea....until you no longer pull loose dye particles from the leather. Once you get to that point, add a conditioner and let it sit.....the buff it again.

You can certainly use any finish that you want, but bag-kote / tan-kote is not water proof, so any excessive exposure to moisture may result in the removal of the finish. On the bottle, it says "Moisture resistant", so the occasional rain drop won't cause too many problems. Resolene is pretty good IMO. After the 'extra' shine wears off, I've found it to be a durable sealant/finish....however, it too is moisture resistant, not waterproof...though I've not had any problems with resolene running if it gets too wet.

Neatlac, et. al., is a lacquer finish that should be rubbed into the leather. Spraying it doesn't get it into the pores very well, and it can quickly puddle up. When this happens and it's allowed to dry, you get cracking and peeling of the finish.

I haven't used the oil dyes, so I can't give a first hand perspective on them.

[garytylermcleod]

TwinOaks, I don't understand why you would be so quick to dismiss my hypothesis. Are you a scientist? I think these kind of experiments are rather important. Please keep reading. I think I have some worthwhile evidence that supports my hypothesis.

I should have said "doesn't visibly penetrate at all". I have done a lot of airbrushing oil and spirit dyes. The pieces I have airbrushed have had much worse rub off than the ones I have airbrushed, enough so that I don't believe this is just a coincidence.

Alcohol is known to evaporate at very high rates as the particles are exposed to air. Denatured alcohol which we use to thin dyes evaporates at an incredible rate just from my gloves. When an airbrush is used, it makes perfect sense that this alcohol solvent would evaporate at exponentially higher rates than when on a dauber, as the alcohol particles are exposed to so much air. This would lead to a lower solvent to pigment ratio. The solvent is what carries the pigment into the leather so with less solvent, it makes sense that the pigment would not go as deep.

I have used airbrushes for many different things. It is not normal that an airbrush applies less of a medium at a time. Airbrushes are just known to apply it more evenly. My airbrush will adjust to apply a lot of stuff all at once. The way a brush or dauber works is very similar to how an airbrush works in respect to how much of a medium is applied in a given moment. Both can only apply as much of the medium as is contacting the surface.

Since your post, I decided to conduct a little experiment I remember being suggested by the person who gave me the hypothesis to begin with. I had an old bottle of Eco-Flo Bison Brown which was perfect for it. All I did was try using the water based dye in my airbrush and seeing how it performed. I was very surprised at the results. The water based dye in my airbrush had no problem creating puddles all over the leather on both sides. I then grabbed another piece and tried to not create puddles. After that, I cut them each open with a razor. The dye was penetrating just as much as it does with a brush, which is very visible. These results certainly support my hypothesis.

TwinOaks, can you explain these results with a water based dye instead of an alcohol based dye? Why would the results be so drastically different?

The problem with the rubbing idea on the grain side/edges is that is roughens the leather and ruins the smooth edges I have slicked already. I am looking for the best solution aside from rubbing and rubbing. Thank you though.

For this project, the main concern is a person sweating a lot. It will not be total saturation.

Also, what is your experience with Neatlac and ruboff? Do you consider it good for preventing ruboff when it is rubbed into the leather?

How many coats of Resolene have given you good results from your experience? My personal experiences with Resolene have not been good. With even 2 coats of it, only the smallest bit of moisture brings the dye right out.

Like I've said, my best experiences have been using Bag-Kote. I have had decent results with 2 coats of it.

[Chavez]

Hi.

I'm about to test my anti-ruboff method for a third time now. Making a black watch band and I don't want it rubbing off on my shirts.

First, I've made one black phone belt pouch finished with resolene (edges finished with atom wax+resolene) and I got very little ruboff in the first month, then it stopped at all. Resolene seals the dye really well, but I don't really like the glossy look it gives to leather.

My current method is to dye, rub the grain a bit, wash the grain with some saddle soap, oil, rub. Then the only thing that you should avoid is using a waxy finish that lifts up a lot of dye (aussie's and atom wax lift loads!). Bag kote will do, however, one of my belts is finished with just carnauba creme and it gives very little to no ruboff. Nothing that can be seen unless you know where to look for it and nothing that can't be cleaned in a wash).

You don't have to rub with sand paper A cotton cloth will do, so your edges are not in danger!

[TwinOaks]

TwinOaks, I don't understand why you would be so quick to dismiss my hypothesis. Are you a scientist?

I didn't dismiss it, I was refuting it. And no, I'm not a scientist but I have been taught scientific principle - that's why I mentioned it falling off if tilted as evidence that it does penetrate. Testing your stated hypothesis, "that alcohol based dye applied with an airbrush doesn't penetrate at all", yields the results that it DOES penetrate...at least a little...which disproves the original hypothesis. I should have said "doesn't visibly penetrate at all". That's a different hypothesis. I don't think you're very far off on that one...perhaps "barely penetrates" is better, and would have my agreement.

Since your post, I decided to conduct a little experiment I remember being suggested by the person who gave me the hypothesis to begin with. I had an old bottle of Eco-Flo Bison Brown which was perfect for it. All I did was try using the water based dye in my airbrush and seeing how it performed. I was very surprised at the results. The water based dye in my airbrush had no problem creating puddles all over the leather on both sides. I then grabbed another piece and tried to not create puddles. After that, I cut them each open with a razor. The dye was penetrating just as much as it does with a brush, which is very visible. These results certainly support my hypothesis. Mine too!

TwinOaks, can you explain these results with a water based dye instead of an alcohol based dye? Why would the results be so drastically different?

See the second paragraph of my previous post. Airbrushing typically doesn't put so much dye on the leather that it soaks in. I just didn't say it like you did, mentioning the amount of solvent that carries the dye. If you want the dye to really soak into the leather, dip dye it... or buy it drum dyed.

The problem with the rubbing idea on the grain side/edges is that is roughens the leather and ruins the smooth edges I have slicked already. I am looking for the best solution aside from rubbing and rubbing. Thank you though. That IS the best solution. To prevent rub off you have to remove the residual, unabsorbed dye particles from the surface. If you just seal them down, they will eventually get loose again. I buff with cloth towels or paper towels and the results are very much like using a slicker... it's actually putting a very light burnish on the surface. If your surface seems rough, it's because there's so much residual dye. If rubbing your slicked edges makes them rough, you haven't finished with them. See Bob Park's tutorial on edges....slick, dye, burnish, and seal.

For this project, the main concern is a person sweating a lot. It will not be total saturation.

Also, what is your experience with Neatlac and ruboff? Do you consider it good for preventing ruboff when it is rubbed into the leather? Yes, it's pretty good once you have all the extra dye particles out of the way.

How many coats of Resolene have given you good results from your experience? My personal experiences with Resolene have not been good. With even 2 coats of it, only the smallest bit of moisture brings the dye right out. Two coats is fine, and I've had Excellent results...but then I'm using a different method....hmmmm.

Like I've said, my best experiences have been using Bag-Kote. I have had decent results with 2 coats of it.

[garytylermcleod]

Thanks for all your thoughts TwinOaks! I e-mailed Kevin from Springfield leather and he offered that acriylic finishes like Resolene need to dry in low humidity. Well, I live in Portland so that is a little bit impossible here.

[Northmount]

Thanks for all your thoughts TwinOaks! I e-mailed Kevin from Springfield leather and he offered that acriylic finishes like Resolene need to dry in low humidity. Well, I live in Portland so that is a little bit impossible here.

Try a heated box, hair dryer, heat lamp, just don't burn it to a crisp. Kitchen range ovens may not be able to set the temperature low enough. Do some searching here for how people are drying their projects. I have seen lots of posts.

CTG