I Wish....

[billymac814]

There were more tool makers that would either make or offer a more utilitarian tools that could be sold cheaper. Don't get me wrong I sure like looking at some of these very beautiful tools they produce but man they get expensive. I would gladly opt for an edger with a plain old handle that had an excellent cutting surface for less money than one made of some exotic wood with the same excellent cutting surface for a lot more money. I just want my stuff that performs well over top of anything else and not have to take out a business loan to get a few hand tools.

Am I alone here or would there seriously be a market for a more utilitarian version of what they already offer. Or is there someone who makes what I'm after? Cs Osborne is pretty utilitarian by looks but the performance is so so on some of thier items.

[JLSleather]

Yep, I'm with you .. pretty doesn't mean much if it doesn't do the job. My credit is okay I guess, but I stil drive a 1999 vehicle that there is nothing wrong with.

[J Hayes]

I agree too. And they need to learn what a polish really is. I mean advertise it as being "polished" and when you get the thing its been hit with 180 grit and called good! Theses steels polish to a mirror like finish, and when they are truly polished they cut through the leather better and best of all you don't have to fight to get the darn punch back outta the leather! I'd go for a plain polished cutting edge and a pine handle.

Jeremy

[billymac814]

I'm with ya, my Jeep is a 1996.

I have no complaints with the way the pretty ones perform, everyone I've got works great, but I don't need them to be all fancy pants for an extra charge. I don't often see this in other trades for some reason, my guess is because the tool makers are usually also leatherworkers so they continue to make art through their tools.

Now my thoughts are slightly hypocritical though because if someone wanted me to make a holster that was more utilitarian and they didn't care about how it looks I'd probably tell them to pound sand.

I don't consider myself to be cheap, I just don't like to spend money on things that aren't important to me. Quality is important to me though and I'd rather be able to afford more quality tools rather than just a few that work the same but look pretty.

[billymac814]

I agree, I end up polishing my own, I normally use the strop wheel on my tormek to get a good polished edge. I use the edge of it for the edgers. Most of the time I end up using my cheaper Tandy edgers as they seem to work better than some other brands I have. I'd like to find a good set but if I want 2 different styles with say 3 sizes of round bottom ones and one or two for sharp corners were talking 300.00 to 400.00 bucks just for a set of edgers. This is what started this rant which is why I keep bringing up edgers but it applies to just about everything as well.

I agree too. And they need to learn what a polish really is. I mean advertise it as being "polished" and when you get the thing its been hit with 180 grit and called good! Theses steels polish to a mirror like finish, and when they are truly polished they cut through the leather better and best of all you don't have to fight to get the darn punch back outta the leather! I'd go for a plain polished cutting edge and a pine handle.

Jeremy

[MakerUnknown]

Totally agree. I love beautiful things as much as the next person but I don't think a hammer needs a fancy handle to pound a nail in.

Give me a round knife with more time spent on the metal and less on a cocobolo handle.

[Cyberthrasher]

I look at it like this. I've seen several tool makers who make a good quality blade/tool and they have a standard base price. These things are beautiful and perform beautifully. Guess what, that starting price is pretty high - regardless of the wood. If you want a cool custom exotic wood - that will be an upcharge. My point being that you're not really paying for the wood a lot of times, you're paying for the years of knowledge and craftsmanship that went into the tools development, such as the shape and steel contents of the blade or the weight, balance, and material in a maul. Don't get me wrong, I would be more than happy to pay LESS money , but I'm also willing to save up to get something that's been expertly created and will last a lifetime. Think about it like this - what would we do if our customers just said "slap a buckle on that piece of veg-tan and give it to me for $5. Hell, it's just gotta hold my pants up. I don't need nothing fancy!!"

Totally agree. I love beautiful things as much as the next person but I don't think a hammer needs a fancy handle to pound a nail in.

Give me a round knife with more time spent on the metal and less on a cocobolo handle.

tied in to my point. A leatherwranglers round knife is $275 with his stock wood. Add exotic woods and it's $35 more. What do you think you're paying for here, the blade or the wood?

[MakerUnknown]

And I totally agree with you too.

Here is an infill plane I made...well, I did the wood part of it.

I was using the metal blade vs the wood handle as an analogy for where the importance of a tool lies.

I don't mind paying for good tools, in fact it's a dogma of mine to buy the best I can. I don't cheap out.

But I agree with the OP as far as some things don't need to be overly fussy.

[Cyberthrasher]

I agree with that too. looks like we're all just kind of all over the place

[TwinOaks]

You CAN get those tools....contact Bruce Johnson, or go to his website. He buys/sells leather tools... mostly in the antique range, but all of them are good. Or you can look at some of Paul Zalasek's tools....they're very expensive, but only until you find out why.

I spoke to Paul on the phone and he spent an incredible amount of money in R&D to produce his knives. And I believe that due to his efforts, he's got one of (if not THE) best steels available, which serves to reduce the cost of the knife quite a bit when you amortize the cost over the extremely long life of the blade.

Having a nice handle is just icing on the cake, but in the same thought, most people would complain loudly if they got good steel but it had a rough shaped pine handle. Since these nice tools have nice wood, most of the copy cats and knock off artists go for the easy to copy part - the handles. So when you see what seem like 'basic' tools that still have a high cost, keep in mind that you're probably seeing a truer cost of the tool.

It would seem that enough people are interested in tools like you've described that Tandy has introduced a new set of tools - made from SS, instead of chromed zinc. I can only hope that they'll see enough interest in the nicer tools that they'll push the better quality to their other tools as well.

[bruce johnson]

To just address the wooden handled tools, those tools have been available. McMillen made nice handled tools with pretty good steel and plain sort of handles. They had a pretty good finish to the steel and most were and still are pretty good workhorses. The original McMillen was in Kansas City and then was bought and moved into Missouri. It has been a family run busines. They sold through a few distributers, but never have the upfront marketing of other makers that are now somewhat riding a reputation.

The guys making the higher end tools today have a lot invested in equipment and more importantly - experience. The machinery to make them isn't cheap, they don't have a shop full of employees cranking them out, and to compete they have to put out a better product and make it look nicer than the off-the-rack tools. Good steel properly shaped does that on the working end and a pretty handle does it at the other end.

The older tools from most makers generally had rosewood handles, brass ferrules, and were pretty. There was competition and pride between the makers. The harness and saddlery trade was big and these tools were made for professionals. They had to work and pretty was just a plus. Pretty much by WW1 most of these makers were out of business - 3 generations of wealth rule and lesser demand. One company carried through and still made working tools until the craft business came on. After that, tools tended more towards a price point and plain handles with dipped finishes and nickle ferrules got more common. Eventually some of the old designs got dropped or changed in favor of less hand work and finish that still will sell.

Some of the end users took a lot of pride in their tools too. I am attaching a picture of an old Dixon round knife I just got. Here's some pride! My wife claimed it right off and it is in the glass display case for now.

[billymac814]

There's seems to be a mixed bag of opinions here which is what I expected.

I'm not complaining about the cost of what goes in to the steel and all the RD that goes into making a tool that works well. In fact that's exactly what I want to pay for because that's what's important to me.

I was a little torn because of my earlier comment about the fact that I wouldn't cheapen on of my holsters or belts like someone else mentioned but I'm not making every holster out of an exotic skin, my base ones are quality cowhide, I wouldn't consider using a lesser grade leather or not finishing the edges to make one cheaper than that and I wouldn't want a tool maker to start using cheap steel or not putting in the research, I just don't need the fancy wood and other embellishments on my tools because that doesn't help me improve my work and it definitely doesn't increase my bottom line, well it does help when tax time comes around:-).

I personally would choose the cheaper option on most of my tool purchases given the choice assuming they performed the same. If a leather wrangler knife is 275 with a plain handle or 310 with a fancy one i would take the plain one. That money saved could go to more tools that could make my end product better and would probably save me time or allow me to take on more jobs if I'm equipped to do so, all of those things would make me more money or just use the time saved by spending more time with my family which I don't have much time to do now.

There are certain times when nice tools are cool to have especially if its something that you always use and they are always nice to look at but I don't need it for everything. I've spent over 50,000 in tools and machinery over the past few years, I always try to buy the best, I'm not cheap by any means however I'm running a business over anything else so I need to not only watch my expenses but make sure I have what I need to get the job done, the more I spend the less I make, that's simple math but I'm not saying I want to buy all Tandy tools because the math doesn't work there because any money saved goes into time spent reworking tools or trying to keep them sharp.

Ill check out the company Bruce mentioned and see what they have. I am on Bruce's mailing list and check his site on a regular basis, he always has some amazing hard to find stuff. My main point of the post is what's currently available. It all seems to be of either low quality or super high quality with the super fancy wood or engraved brass pieces etc. Maybe what I'm looking for is out there, I don't know which is the reason for the post. Barry king tools seem to be the most reasonable for what you get, I haven't tried an edger from him yet and as of now ill probably be ordering one to try it unless I find something else in the mean time.

[Cyberthrasher]

I think as far as hand tools, Barry's would be about what I would expect to pay for quality vs. price. I think the main thing you're going to run into is manufacturers KNOW that the way an item looks reflects on the quality. People automatically assume that a good looking item must perform good and a poor looking item with basic materials HAS to be cheaply made and poor performing. Look at the stohlman damascus round knives (why do we keep coming back to that one tool as an example??). Those things look really pretty and I can tell that they've sold thousands of them by the number of people who are trying to resell them after they've realized they don't do the job they're meant to do. So, from a manufacturer's point of view, it's just good business to make your tools look pretty, regardless of how they perform, because the majority of customers will pay more for it. This goes across every industry. Look at how many people buy "pretty" choppers at a premium that can't even make it down the road, or flashy guitars for over a grand that have to be taken to the shop and setup right the second you leave the store.

[CWR]

Billymac,

I probably sound like a broken record but if you requested the Bieler's catalog for the slot punches, they also carry the Mcmillen edgers. I have a set of bissonets and a french edger and they are good quality. i did have to sharpen them some but they hold an edge. I also have a set of Gomph round bottom edgers that I got from Bruce. I seem to use the Gomph's more and more but the Mcmillens are good tools.

CW

[billymac814]

Ill call Bieler's and request a catalog, I tried searching for them online the last time and I tried searching for Mcmillens but neither have a website. I did find a lot of people complaining about Mcmillens customer service so I definitely don't want to order directly from them.

Do you know roughly what the cost of the mcmillen edgers are?

I've been checking out the Gomph edgers from Bruce and if I decide to spend more than 50 bucks on an edger I think that is the route I'm going to go, I think I'll feel better spending that kind of money on an edger if its old. Ill have to contact him and see what sizes I need. The nice thing about buying from him is he won't sell you something that won't do what you need it to do. I contacted him about a round knife a while back and was ready to pick and buy one from his site, he could have easily just sold me one but he was upfront and said he didn't have one that would really fit my needs. A lot of people would have just picked the next closest thing to make a sale.

I picked up an edger from Weavers a few months ago, it is from their "masters" line which I thought should be a professional grade tool but I can't get it to cut very well even after working on it a bit.

Billymac,

I probably sound like a broken record but if you requested the Bieler's catalog for the slot punches, they also carry the Mcmillen edgers. I have a set of bissonets and a french edger and they are good quality. i did have to sharpen them some but they hold an edge. I also have a set of Gomph round bottom edgers that I got from Bruce. I seem to use the Gomph's more and more but the Mcmillens are good tools.

CW

[Knipper]

Well, I use cocobolo for the handles on my head knives. I chose it because its dense, takes a nice polish, has attractive grain patterns, holds up well, and I can get it in thick boards, which I then cut down to handle thickness and width, as opposed to buying smaller handle sized pieces from the suppliers. I suppose I could buy regular "no grain" walnut, or some other hardwood for the handles, but you know what?...there probably wouldn't be more than $5 difference in price between the two of them, as least for the way I buy cocobolo. It takes the same amount of labor, the same hardware and the same amount of sanding belts to finish the handle no matter what material I use. I guess I could also make them without brass bolsters, which, counting labor might shave another $15 off the price. But then the knife wouldn't have a satisfying "heft" to them. I could also use pins, instead of bolts to help fasten the handles, but bolts last longer and are less apt to get loose over 25 years. So overall, that might shave 10% off the cost of the knife. But here's the thing, as of now, I plan on offering a discount for cash purchases (real cash...not checks..) at every show I do, so that will give someone the same amount off that they would get if I used cheaper (or fewer) materials, and they still get a premium looking knife. I guess what I'm saying is, as the maker of the tool, I try to offer performance first, and then worry about appearance. Pride in workmanship prohibits me from going the "cheap" route. But the premium price is mostly because of the blade's performance, labor and quality of the materials used. I want my work to look as nice 50 years from now as it did when it was purchased. Down the road, if you ever decide to sell the tool, it should have a higher "used" value because of these better woods and minor extras. I've often wondered if offering a sharpened "Blank" for a lesser amount, would be a good idea. Then the customer can make and install their own handle. But...then I've got my name on a piece that may or may not look good when they're done, and years from now, someone will wonder if I drank a few too many when "I" made that handle! So, I probably won't go that route...we'll see!

[MakerUnknown]

Knipper,

Hi. If you look back on the first page of this discussion, I posted a couple photos of a plane I finished. It came in a kit form with 95% of metal work done but left up to me to put in the wood handles and do the final opening of the throat.

It's a Ron Brese kit. He sold the kit I think for right around $700..maybe 8, I can't remember really. A finished one by him runs $1742. The difference is he did not stamp his name in the blade on the kit for just the reasons you quoted. You have to maintain the integrity of your brand and you can't if you're name is on it.

I think offering a high quality blade without the rest of the bits might be a good idea.

[CWR]

The McMillens are about 15 for the bissonets and 25 for the round bottoms. I don't have my catalog in front of me so this is ball park.

I have to say I have one of Terry's knives. It is worth every cent I paid for it. If I walked out and saw my shop on fire, that knife and the Gomph's from Bruce would be the first things i got out.

CW

[dirtclod]

I wish the tool makers would but sizes on the tools in 8th 16th of a inch. 0 through 5 or 6 doesn't tell me anything about how big it is when i'm looking at beveler's or say basket weave stamps and i don't want to be ordering and have to send it back and trade because it's to big or to small.

Like Billy Mac it doesn't have to be real fancy for me, just that it works and works well.