Pancake Collapses

[bugboy449]

I tried making a snap style pancake holster for my CZ, but when I tighten my belt enough to hold the weight of the gun the mouth of the holster collapses inward at the back of the trigger guard and makes re-holstering difficult. Did I put my "rear anchor" point to far back or not far back enough? If I provide more "slack" in the rear snap strap, would that maybe help?

[mlapaglia]

Did you bake the holster for about 10-20 minutes after molding it, while it was still wet, at about 200 degs? You need to get the temperature of the leather up to 125 degs. This causes the collagen in the leather to melt and then harden. It makes it really stiff and helps with keeping it open. In addition the heat makes the reinforcement piece stiff enough to help hold the top open.

A photo of the back side would help us help you. What weight leather did you use and was it by chance a part of the belly?

Edited February 17, 2013 by mlapaglia

[bugboy449]

I didn't do the oven thing. The leather is single shoulder from Springfield (9-10 oz.) the straps and reinforcement are horse.

I guess I'll try the oven thing on this and see if that helps.

[mlapaglia]

If you have applied a finish to the leather I would not heat it. It might damage the finish. Normally the leather is cased and then molded, baked and then left to dry for 24 hours. From the looks of the back I would have added some distance between the stitch line against the gun and the start of the strap. The closeness of the straps to the gun could also be causing part of your problem. Id hold off and see what others have to say about it.

Take 2 pieces of scrap leather the same size and bake one until it reaches a temp of 125 degrees and the other leave alone as a control. You will see the difference. Be careful as it is pretty easy to burn the leather. I say 200 because thats as low as my oven goes. If yours goes lower than get as close to 125 degs setting as you can. In my oven and at the normal casing water content it takes between 10 and 20 minutes. I take it out every so often and put a insta-read thermometer inside the pistol compartment against a stitch line to take a reading on the temp. When it hits 125 I take it out put it in front of a fan and leave it over night to drive.

Michael

[Haystacker]

Try cutting the leather straps on the inside where your belt goes through. Your straps are too wide at the belt. That should give you the relief you need. Email me at haysholsters@hotmail .com and I can send you a picture.

[billymac814]

Also your reinforced mouth is doing nothing to help it stay open the way it is. It needs to wrap around to offer any reinforcement.

[Lobo]

Everything in holster design involves compromises among the 4 basic factors of comfort, accessibility, security, and concealability. Whenever one factor is emphasized there will be compromises in the other factors. There is no such thing as the "perfect holster" for every user or every situation; if there were such a thing there would be only one holster design made.

Pancake-style holsters in general emphasize comfort (by spreading the weight over a broader area of the belt), concealability (by reducing the visual profile of the weapon via the smooth outer shell that allows a cover garment to glide over the holstered handgun without snagging or "printing"), and security (retention provided by natural action of the holster under belt tensioning). These aspects of the pancake-style design come with some degree of compromise in accessibility (particularly ease of re-holstering).

Pancake-style holsters achieve much of their retention qualities (security) from tensioning applied by the belt, pulling the holstered handgun snugly into the body. When the handgun is removed that tensioning remains and can cause the holster pocket to close to some degree. The stitch-lines fore-and-aft of the handgun provide for flexing at those points to facilitate retention.

What I am explaining is that what you are describing may not be entirely a bad thing, simply an aspect of how pancake-style holsters perform their intended functions.

While it is certainly possible to form a pancake-style leather holster in such a manner that the molded aspects are more rigid and less yielding to belt tensioning, that function can be expected to be reduced over time as the leather flexes repeatedly in use and reacts to the forces applied by the belt and user's body. Leather will always remain as a natural fibrous substance that manifests wear by stretching and becoming more pliable with repeated flexing.

For those with holster needs including an absolute requirement for ease of re-holstering I would recommend other holster designs that emphasize the factor of accessibility more so than the pancake-style.

I have noted that you, like many others, have applied a "reinforcement" panel to the outer holster panel in a manner suggesting mouth reinforcement. Such attempts at reinforcement of pancake-style holsters cannot really perform much in the way of mouth reinforcement because of the natural tendencies of such holsters to flex inward at the stitch-lines when the handgun is removed. In my opinion, such reinforcement panels serve more as decorative touches than functional additions, while also adding a bit of bulk (potentially compromising concealability).

What I see is a pretty nice piece of work that is apparently behaving just as I would expect a pancake-style holster to behave in actual use.

Best regards.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Lobo

[bugboy449]

Lobo,

Thanks for the indepth reply. Everything you said makes sense. I think I'll just use this holster as a "learning aid" and BBQ rig. I don't think I'll carry an SP-01 Shadow as an "everyday carry" at 42 ounces! I was hoping to make a holster for IDPA and will look at other styles (pouch or avenger).

I'm having fun learning this stuff and it helps to have knowledgeable folks on the forum that are so willing to share their experience. After making just 3 holsters, I've already got a handful of people wanting to me to make them a holster. Since I'm currently "Obama-nomics retired" and retired military,,,,, I might just try to sell a few just to finance my leather and IDPA addictions.

Thanks to all for their help and inputs.

[D Fingers]

I agree with Lobo the pancake is inherently less rigid than other designs but excels at keeping the gun tight to the body. That being said my pancakes stay open fine and reholstering is never a problem. Recently I have been using Katsass 4 layer laminated technique, these holsters are extremely rigid I'm guessing it would take 50 lbs +/- to collapses them.

[TwinOaks]

I'll chime in with the note that there are two types of pancake style holster. The one you made is the most common, which utilizes the flexibility of the leather of both front and back panels. The other type is often referred to (on here, at least) as a 'flat back' holster. All of the molding/shaping is done on the top panel of the leather, leaving the back completely flat. While this type of design will stay open more readily (the back panel is taking all the tension), it will not hold quite as securely unless additional steps are taken. These could include a thumb strap, super detail molding, lipstick on the pig, etc.

[bugboy449]

I made a couple of modifications as suggested by "haystacker" and used a little heat,,,,, I think it is going to be fine now. Amazing what a little trimming did.

I'd like to try a lined holster, but I think it is a little beyond me at this point. I'll give it a go when I've built up a little experience/confidence.

Thanks to all for their help and input. I just need to keep at it. I've already learned a lot from just these 3 holsters I've made so far. The good news is,,,, all 3 are useable (not something I would show off to people that know something,,,, but useable).